Almost in time. He-162.

davebender said:

Like the straight wing and defective plywood, this would have been fixed with 6 months additional development time.

Not much you can do about He 162 rear visibility. However it's not easy to bounce a 560mph aircraft from the rear using a piston engine fighter aircraft.

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you have to land and take off and if you are running at full throttle the rest of the time your radius of action is reduced and in 6 more months it might have been raining nukes in Germany

Maybe we're all forgetting thah the He-162 did not fly well ... unless you were an expert pilot, and that many were built by slave labor, and were sabotaged during construction so the wood joints in the wing were weak. One even came apart when being demonstrated for the Luftwaffe brass. There are pics of this event.

It had some issues but could have been turned into a viable combat aircraft. In the reale vent, it was not a viable combat aircrft and saw little use.

At the Planes of Fame Museum, we have one, in great shape. I have been up close and personal with it many times. It looks the part of a lightweight fighter, but definitly hasn't much air time since being constructed. I'd say it had potential that was never realized, and would have required some devel.opment to be effective. I bet the pilot got quite a jolt when he fired teh cannons as the muzzles are right under his seat.

As far as German stuff goes, we also have 100% full scale wood replicas of the Bachem Natter, the Heinkel He-100D, and an Me-163 Komet, a real Fieseler Storch, a Fokker Triplane, an Me-109E raised from a Russian lake (to be repstored to flying status), and a Fleugwerk Fw 190F with an R-2800 in it (flyable).

Pacific Wrecks - B5N Kate Manufacture Number 5353 Tail 53-305 (H-305)

Hey Greg, you guys are not interested in this B5N?

God, how I would like to see this aircraft restored. I always had fascination by it.

It had some issues but could have been turned into a viable combat aircraft. In the reale vent, it was not a viable combat aircrft and saw little use. ( By GreqP about He 162)
P-80 was viable in 45? How many pilots ,IN PERFECT conditions and with all raw materials available, were killed in 45 flying the P80? Even the best american pilot Bong was among them. Still you consider it combat ready
He 162 was very interesting and capable as point defender as it was. Few corrections were nessecary to become formidable anti fighter interceptor
1) Jummo 004D(in production April 45) for better fuel efficiency,throttle responce and better performance
2) Longer fuselage for additional fuel
3) Corrected angle between fuselage and wings
4) Somewhat larger wing area.
5) Better construction quality
6) Better brakes
7) Drop tanks
Most of them were on the planned -B model
Still would be very cheap and superior to Meteor I/III and the first soviets jets. T

Jim,

Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said the P-80 was combat ready, and I don't consider it so. I said tt was an even match or possibly slightly better than the Me-262. Neither was combat ready, as far as I'm concerned, in late 1944 to mid-1945. They probably would have both been combat ready by the end of 1945 but, in wartime, equipment gets deployed before it is ready. From the example we have at our museum, I don't think the He-162 was ever going to be combat ready without a major redesign for larger size, more power, better quality, and enough items to mean the combat-ready version would be a different aircraft entirely.

The combat-ready P-80 was very much the same as those deployed in 1945 with minor updates that didn't materially change the looks, airframe size, engine, or anything else in the P-80. The German equipment is what it is; they never deployed improved version of many of the the late-war planes because the war ended and so did the Luftwaffe, RLM, the Nazi government, etc. So we are left with the planes as deployed.

The T-152 series had great potential but never lived up to it.

The He-162 could have been developed but, as deployed, was not a great aircraft and was, in fact, dangerous to low-time pilots in addition to having an unreliable and short-life engine.

The Me-262 enjoyed some success, but likely more than if the Allied jets had been deployed at the front.

The He-280 was only a prototype and probably would have been combat ready sooner than the Me-262 was if pursued for production.

The Bachem Natter killed more Luftwaffe test pilots tha Allied people.

The Me-163 was very interesting, but was not a combat success.

So the Luftwaffe was essentially 1 for 6 above if you consider the Me-262 as a success. I think it was mildly successful, which speaks well for what was essentially prototype techology. I don't consider any of the other four as successful in that yes, they flew, but no, they did not not perform in combat as anticipated. Together as a team, they failed to stop any sinlge large combat raid, much less turn the tide of war.

Still, I find them innovative and very interessting, but not war winners as deployed.


Jenisch,

I'm sure we would be interested in the Kate; at least I am. Rare warbirds always interest me. Thanks for the link!

We are making great progress with our Yiokosuka D4Y Judy. It has the engine and cowling on it mow and we are working on the exhaust ejectors. At present it LOOKS pretty complete, btu tehre are a lot of details left before we can start and taxi it.

GregP said:

<snip>...many were built by slave labor, and were sabotaged during construction so the wood joints in the wing were weak. One even came apart when being demonstrated for the Luftwaffe brass...<snip>

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Here's another view on this...

German science had developed an advanced phenolic resin in the early 30's, initially with a view towards finding a better bonding method when laminating plies of veneer during the manufacture of "marine"/exterior grade plywood. Extant glues were waterborne solutions, using casein based formulations and caused warpage issues due to the wetting effect of these glues. "Tego Film" was an entirely different approach. It used sheets of paper, impregnated with phenolic resins and assembled under heat and pressure, similar to "hot melt" phenolics in common usage today. By 1943, Germany had developed this product to the point where it was to be used in the production of all of the wood components (being engineered by the aircraft industry as an economy measure), as the war situation went increasingly "pear-shaped".
Problem was that this "super glue" was manufactured at one facility (Wuppertal) and those decidedly "unsporting" British completely destroyed this facility. As the decisions had already been taken to introduce large-scale wooden components into aircraft production, the Germans scrambled for an immediate "work around" substitute and the one that was chosen later proved to be far from optimal.
In fact, it was later discovered that this "ersatz" adhesive developed severe acidity, (months after curing) and actually attacked and degraded the cellular structure of the wood itself. The glue was still as sound as the day it had been applied, but the wood surfaces deteriorated to the point where the joints sometimes failed under the repeated high stresses inherent in aviation.

It would be really interesting to know just how many of the piston engined machines with "ersatz" wooden construction were lost in the last year of the war when these wooden components failed under hard manoevering. I'm willing to bet that this number may be rather significant.

And I'm not denying the fact that many "impressed" laborers did indeed do their part...that said, I'm also quite sure that quality control measures would have forestalled many such defective structures from ever being installed. I'm sure that these items would be subjected to visual inspection and stress testing...they're going into combat aircraft after all.

It remains that what I have shown above is documented fact...and it was the actual source of the lions share of the "problems" with wooden substitutes in the last year of the war.

Actually, the He280 was combat ready by the time the Me262 was being tested with a piston engine in it's nose...the RLM turned it down.

The He162 was rushed into production, so it had teething problems that would have been ironed out if it had been allowed to be developed through the standard process of development AND not being sabotaged by the forced laborer during assembly.

It definately held potential, but then again, so did the Ho229 and other up-and-coming Luftwaffe jet types...

When did the HeS 8 engine pass a 100 hour endurance test?

davebender said:

When did the HeS 8 engine pass a 100 hour endurance test?

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It wasn't until the 004B was produced in 43, that a satisfactory 100 hour endurance test was acheived...and even then, the 004B was problematic...

The He280 was ready for production in '41 and if the RLM had approved the project and provided the much needed funding, the problems with the HeS8 (and it's possible successor, the HeS30) would have been addressed. Since the He280 was designed for the smaller and lower thrust engine, using an alternate engine destined the airframe to problems.

I seriously doubt the He 280 was combat ready. I have no trouble believing the airframe could have been so, but not the engines. If they were, they would have been fitted to the Me-262 ... and weren't.

Meanwhile, the Ho-229 showed potential, too, but not all the flight characteristics were very good. It would have needed development as well as better engines.

Perhaps you missed the part where I said the He280 was designed around the lower thrust HeS8?

Nope, didn't miss it at all. What I said, essentially, was that if the engines were combat-ready they would have been used, probably on other aircraft. They weren't, so I infer some issues with the engines. At that stage in the war I doubt if a good, combat-ready engine would have been ignored, even if weer a Heinkel design.

Because of funding issues, the developement of the engines became agonizing slow. You'll notice that the Jumo engine developement suffered similiar problems, even after the RLM gave Messerschmitt the go-ahead for the 262.

Heinkel was counting on the RLM to give him thier blessing early on and it wasn't until 1943 when they finally decided on a limited run of the 280 (and they were developing the HeS011 as a replacement), but by then the war was on in earnest and time ran out for the project when Milch gave it the axe.

The advantage to the HeS8 engine was that it could run on kerosene where the Jumo used Diesel, synthetic or aviation fuel.

Where were the pilots to fly this aircraft to come from? It's origional intent was to be a kinder, gentler, aircraft for low time pilots to be able to take it into combat, and that it was not. It took a experienced pilot, and those were in short supply.

As for increasing it's range with a longer fuselage, it already had plenty of unused room in it's present design, but they couldn't utilize it, it already had lead added forward to correct for a tailheavy COG problem. It needed a complete redesign of the fuselage to mount the wings further back, or a wing redesign, for swept wings.

Because of funding issues, the developement of the engines became agonizing slow. You'll notice that the Jumo engine developement suffered similiar problems

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The Jumo 004A engine passed several 100 hour endurance tests during 1943 and the final version was supposedly rated for a service life of 250 hours. As good as many piston engines. RLM funded production of only 80 Jumo 004A engines.

Germany did not mass produce jet aircraft during 1943 because RLM chose not to do so. If Germany had produced jet aircraft during 1943 they would almost certainly be powered by the Jumo 004A engine. The only choice would be whether those Jumo 004A engines power the He 280 airframe or the Me 262 airframe.

Come on - you know that the 004A used far too many rare materials which Germany couldn't supply in sufficient quantities. That's why they had to redesign it into the 004B.
Just passing some static 100h endurance tests does not make an engine combat ready - many so tested BMW 801 or DB 603 initially made poof after just about 20 hours of realworld flight ops.

Perhaps you could give me names for those rare materials and quantities required for both the Jumo 004A engine and the DB605A piston engine. Then we can make an informed decision rather then just repeating "common knowledge" which is often wrong.

davebender said:

The Jumo 004A engine passed several 100 hour endurance tests during 1943 and the final version was supposedly rated for a service life of 250 hours. As good as many piston engines. RLM funded production of only 80 Jumo 004A engines.

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I think you meant the 004B passed the test in 1943, since the 004A had already been tested and was fitted to the 262 during it's trials in 1941...subsequently having (as you said) 80 units produced, total.

davebender said:

Germany did not mass produce jet aircraft during 1943 because RLM chose not to do so. If Germany had produced jet aircraft during 1943 they would almost certainly be powered by the Jumo 004A engine. The only choice would be whether those Jumo 004A engines power the He 280 airframe or the Me 262 airframe.

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The He280 was tested with the Jumo engine and the 004 was too heavy for the aircraft...again, Heinkel designed it for the lighter and lower thrust HeS family of engines.

So the Jumo ended up in the Me262, Ar234 and of course, the He162...

Now, here's a different spin on things...just suppose that Heinkel did have success in procuring the funds needed for the HeS series of engines and they ended up producing the He280 (and other related projects)...would the He162 ever have come into being?

just suppose that Heinkel did have success in procuring the funds needed for the HeS series of engines and they ended up producing the He280

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Did the HeS 8 engine pass an endurance test of any duration?

The Jumo 004A engine passed a 10 hour endurance test as early as December 1941. It was more reliable and more powerful then the HeS 8 engine so why would RLM continue to fund the HeS 8 engine program?

GrauGeist said:

So the Jumo ended up in the Me262, Ar234 and of course, the He162.

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I'm pretty sure the Heinkel He 162 was powered by the BMW 003 jet, not the Jumo 004.

Like several German designs, I see this plane its jet as having lots of potential but nothing like enough time or resources available to turn into a combat ready weapons system - or to operate it in any numbers even if it ever were to be properly developed deployed.

......and God help the barely trained children those lunatics in the German heirachy in their nightmareish if laughable delusions imagined flying these things in combt against the well trained well experienced allied pilots.
It would in my opinion have simply been yet more young German lives callously fed into the grinder for no possible alteration in the looming total utter defeat.
Sheer senseless pig-headed murder in other words.