American vs. European Colonialism

michaelmaltby said:

Marcel, as a Canadian, I see the matter from both sides .... Canada was not saved by America in WW1 or WW2 .... Canada - as you well know - was in both conflicts from beginning to end, and Canadians aren't persuaded by any "we won the war" arguments. Nor can we be influenced by any "guilt trips". But - that said - the actions of America after WW2 - the Marshall Plan, the principal carrier of the cold war costs in Europe and Asia, these are not the actions of a typical colonial power.

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The Dutch pay more money per person to charity and development of 3rd world countries than many other nationalities. That is also not typical of a colonial power. We are also no colonial power anymore and haven't been fore many decades.

michaelmaltby said:

No country on earth - no society on earth - is easier to criticize than America, and that is why I used the food posters, as I did. Unless Holland, Belgium, Italy, France, Germany, Greece, Turkey, etc. etc. etc. are willing to step up with blood and treasure to combat events such as 9/11, then, the citizens of these countries are delusional (and I include my own country in that assessment) about the realities of peace and prosperity.

Defense is not free. Democracy is not a given. Free speech and free markets have to be fought for by every generation.

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Oh we have and we do. We've been fighting in Afganistan too, you know. Young Dutch soldiers paid there with their lives next to the Americans. The GErmans are there, too and others. Is that so easily dismissed?

michaelmaltby said:

In my opinion, Marcel, you can't complain about those who sacrifice to defend your interests while freely accepting their services .... without being a hypocrite. And yes, America may very well be hypocritical about its colonial past, but, when push comes to shove America has responded with sacrifice. Contrast this response with the EU's impotence in the Balkans after Yugoslavia dissolved into tribalism ..... they had to get America involved when the matter should have been settled by the EU.

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So in other words, helping someone will make you free of all blame. I don't agree, Michael. A relationship goes both ways in every way. As I said, we're very grateful to the Americans. We also plunge into almost every war that they are involved in, even with our small army. We're also a good trading partner for the US, in that way helping their economy. So we're doing everything we can to return the kindness. But we're still free people and can have our complains and judgements. I guess the Americans would appreciate that more than any other. I believe we can and must be critical about the US. We must not blindly accept what they do or tell us. It would go against everything they fought for in WWII.


ps. the revolt against the US power in the Philippines cost more than 200,000 Philippine lives.

"...helping someone will make you free of all blame..."

I didn't say that, Marcel, and I don't believe that.

"...We are also no colonial power anymore and haven't been fore many decades."

Royal Dutch Shell, Philips Electronics (BP, Exxon, Toyota, BMW, Ford) is the new "imperialism" Marcel, and "colonialism" today, is brand loyalty and market share.

Interesting Philippine War casualties .... this was not a simple colonial war Marcel, this was a war that was a continuation of events that started under Spanish (catholic) occupation and it was first and foremost a war of cultures ....

There are still Islamic guerrillas/terrorists operating in the Philippines.

michaelmaltby said:

I didn't say that, Marcel, and I don't believe that.

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Ah, sorry, then I misinterpreted what you were trying to say.

michaelmaltby said:

Royal Dutch Shell, Philips Electronics (BP, Exxon, Toyota, BMW, Ford) is the new "imperialism" Marcel, and "colonialism" today, is brand loyalty and market share.

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I agree, but all countries are guilty of that, or at least people in all countries.

michaelmaltby said:

Interesting Philippine War casualties .... this was not a simple colonial war Marcel, this was a war that was a continuation of events that started under Spanish (catholic) occupation and it was first and foremost a war of cultures ....

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Aren't all colonial wars?

michaelmaltby said:

There are still Islamic guerrillas/terrorists operating in the Philippines.

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Yeah, probably. They are also in Indonesia, and in most western countries.

Michael, I think I discussed this long enough, so I will stop here. Just want to say that I respect you and your views as you write them on the forum and always have. I'm actually not sure if were really disagreeing here or exchanging views

To my American friends, in no way am I trying to put the US in a bad light. I'm just saying that we all make mistakes in the current situation and in the past. Being critical to others without recognising this is a mistake. In no way will I ever try to deny or try to talk good the mistakes that my country made when it was still a superpower.

It's hard to imagine that the little Republiek der Nederlanden was a superpower about 400 years ago. We beat that other superpower called Spain and were competing to the superpower called Great Britain. These three countries 'ruled the world' so-to-speak. We had huge and very rich colonies in the east and were totally ruthless in our search for wealth, crushing everyone in our way. Even the British complained about our arrogance and ruthlessness. Because of this, I think between 1620 and 1680, we were the richest and arguably most successful country in the world. Once upon a time, the Dutch were the major slave-traders and earned a lot of money over other people's misery. So we have no great history in that respect. Nowadays we're but a small country, going with the flow. We need great allies like the US and our fellow European countries to survive. But it's still a great little country and we're still making our mark in the world, for the good and the bad.

"guilty" ....? of what. I read today that Wolverines are moving into bear country on the BC coast. And snowy owls have pushed as far south as Virginia thanks to recent cold weather and feeding opportunities. What gets referred to as colonialism is, in fact, nature and physical principles at play -- high pressures move (occupy) low pressure areas. I do not believe in "guilt" in most cases - I believe in progress, and so-called colonialism has rarely set a country "back" -- there are exceptions of course, Poland and the Eastern Bloc countries under the Nazis and Soviets for examples.

Marcel, I too think this has gone on long enough, but, when you speak of little Netherlands once being a super-power I smile. The House of Orange re-set the British Monarchy. And today, in these 'progressive' times, you may be surprised to learn that, by ethnicity/nationality, the Dutch are the largest land owners in Canada. Great farmers as we all know .... and I don't believe Canadians feel threatened ...

MM

nuuumannn said:

I remember watching some US award show on the telly and Hugh Laurie was giving a speech about his performance in House after winning some award. His opening line was: "I'm from England, you know; we used to rule the world before you did."

The problem with threads like "Y'know what grinds my gears..." is that without intent, invariably someone gets offended. Rabbiting on about US foreign policy on a US forum is bound to upset the apple cart. Best to keep opinions to ourselves on controversial issues like this.

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I think I'm gonna have to disagree on this one. We are not like other forums and its because of the diversity around here and the openness which we allow members to discuss topics that makes us unique. I can take some egg on my face from what America has or hasn't done in the past. What we really won't tolerate is a total disrespect for someones country or service. That is a no-no.

But civilly discussing what the USA, UK or any other country has or hasn't done is ok by me. Just don't get too political. As long as you're buying afterwards!