GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Hey now!!
American vs. European Colonialism
- Thread starter pattle
- Start date
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Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
But somewhat back on topic: Ok, so the modern colonizers are the Mid-East/ Arab countries. Didn't they do something like that around 1500 years ago and made it as far as Spain? History repeating itself?
michaelmaltby
Colonel
".... Didn't they do something like that around 1500 years ago and made it as far as Spain? History repeating itself?".... yes. And more recently, 1683, they made it to the Gates of Vienna.
History doesn't repeat itself per se, but it does cycle - like tides, sunspots and ocean currents ...
MM
ED:
"....I think that was a valid question to ask." Damn straight it is. This Forum must always be able to discuss such - within the guidelines .... you know, the 'P*****s' word .....
History doesn't repeat itself per se, but it does cycle - like tides, sunspots and ocean currents ...
MM
ED:
"....I think that was a valid question to ask." Damn straight it is. This Forum must always be able to discuss such - within the guidelines .... you know, the 'P*****s' word .....
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yulzari
Staff Sergeant
I am reminded that England was colonised by the Italians, English, Irish, Scandinavians and French and that my great grandparents were living amongst Turkish colonists until the Turks were overthrown and my great grandfather saw the last european slave market in his childhood.
The point is that colonialism, like slavery, has been generally practiced until frightening recently by most nations. History is never simple and rarely matches the received version. Such as the history of europeans taken as slaves to North Africa rarely gets mentioned whereas the (equally reprehensible and cruel) taking of Africans as slaves by Europeans is the received historical model.
Perhaps the differing characteristics of American colonialism is best illustrated by noting that 'American' covers everyone from Baffin Island to Tierra del Fuego not just USA and the long history of colonialism is demonstrated by the colonisation of the extreme north by the Inuit culture from the Dorset culture by 1500 AD.
The point is that colonialism, like slavery, has been generally practiced until frightening recently by most nations. History is never simple and rarely matches the received version. Such as the history of europeans taken as slaves to North Africa rarely gets mentioned whereas the (equally reprehensible and cruel) taking of Africans as slaves by Europeans is the received historical model.
Perhaps the differing characteristics of American colonialism is best illustrated by noting that 'American' covers everyone from Baffin Island to Tierra del Fuego not just USA and the long history of colonialism is demonstrated by the colonisation of the extreme north by the Inuit culture from the Dorset culture by 1500 AD.
The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
Slavery is still practised.
I suppose its hammer and nail. Do you want to be the hammer or the nail?
Choose hammer every time.
School ground bullies and all that. Just on a larger scale.
I suppose its hammer and nail. Do you want to be the hammer or the nail?
Choose hammer every time.
School ground bullies and all that. Just on a larger scale.
michaelmaltby
Colonel
What are you trying to say Michael?
michaelmaltby
Colonel
Marcel: "..... Did not read all of this thread, but I do agree with Pattle on one thing. Many Americans play innocent and dismiss European colonialism as a bad crime while not looking at their own history...."
Just a reminder of what at least one face of American colonialism looked/looks like .... that's all, Marcel. Has any other "colonial" power been as generous to the world that you can think of ..?
Just a reminder of what at least one face of American colonialism looked/looks like .... that's all, Marcel. Has any other "colonial" power been as generous to the world that you can think of ..?
fastmongrel
1st Sergeant
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vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
Well, I guess that's a dangerous discussion. A bit like the "did the Americans save Europe" thread we had some years ago.
Of course, we West Europeans have every reason to be thankful to our American friends. We know that very well and we are. One should only visit the war-cemeteries end see the lovingly maintained stones of the young US soldiers that died fighting for us.
But does that mean that we cannot be critical of the US and it's past? And should we swallow all critique on us as it's been uttered by people form a nation that "saved us"? Quite often this will be interpreted as being ungrateful, which of course is simply untrue. This argument always put us Europeans in a disadvantage in these discussions. And while it has nothing to do with the discussion itself. It sometimes seems like the events of WWII gives the Americans free permission to be critical of others while they should never get any critique back as it would be 'ungrateful'. Still, WWII does not change the many Philipino's that died under American colonialism. Just as our own humanitarian attitude nowadays does not take away our own colonials past. ABout being generous, we Dutch try to be to the best of our capabilities. But we're just a very small country.
So yes, the US did help us in WWII and have been an important ally and friend ever since. But it has nothing to do with the discussion here in my opinion.
michaelmaltby
Colonel
"....But does that mean that we cannot be critical of the US and it's past? And should we swallow all critique on us as it's been uttered by people form a nation that "saved us"? Quite often this will be interpreted as being ungrateful, which of course is simply untrue. This argument always put us Europeans in a disadvantage in these discussions. And while it has nothing to do with the discussion itself. It sometimes seems like the events of WWII gives the Americans free permission to be critical of others while they should never get any critique back as it would be 'ungrateful'..."
Marcel, as a Canadian, I see the matter from both sides .... Canada was not saved by America in WW1 or WW2 .... Canada - as you well know - was in both conflicts from beginning to end, and Canadians aren't persuaded by any "we won the war" arguments. Nor can we be influenced by any "guilt trips". But - that said - the actions of America after WW2 - the Marshall Plan, the principal carrier of the cold war costs in Europe and Asia, these are not the actions of a typical colonial power.
Much of what America has done has been done to defend itself with an understanding that Allies (Britain and Commonwealth excepted) will not/cannot do the job for themselves. I don't have any casualty figures for American "colonialism" in the Philippines (and I doubt you do either) nor any means of comparing American actions there with Dutch colonial activity in Java and elsewhere, but I do know that Americans have again and again put blood and treasure on the line to try and improve the living conditions and the fate of people in unfortunate situations from Afghanistan to (recently) the Philippines. Interesting that many in that country are wishing that the days of Scubic Bay and Clark AFB weren't over and done with.
No country on earth - no society on earth - is easier to criticize than America, and that is why I used the food posters, as I did. Unless Holland, Belgium, Italy, France, Germany, Greece, Turkey, etc. etc. etc. are willing to step up with blood and treasure to combat events such as 9/11, then, the citizens of these countries are delusional (and I include my own country in that assessment) about the realities of peace and prosperity.
Defense is not free. Democracy is not a given. Free speech and free markets have to be fought for by every generation.
In my opinion, Marcel, you can't complain about those who sacrifice to defend your interests while freely accepting their services .... without being a hypocrite. And yes, America may very well be hypocritical about its colonial past, but, when push comes to shove America has responded with sacrifice. Contrast this response with the EU's impotence in the Balkans after Yugoslavia dissolved into tribalism ..... they had to get America involved when the matter should have been settled by the EU.
So I'll end the rant .... but the word colonialism is about as meaningful as the communist concept of peace or the Muslim concept of freedom of expression, IMHO.
MM
Proud Canadian
Marcel, as a Canadian, I see the matter from both sides .... Canada was not saved by America in WW1 or WW2 .... Canada - as you well know - was in both conflicts from beginning to end, and Canadians aren't persuaded by any "we won the war" arguments. Nor can we be influenced by any "guilt trips". But - that said - the actions of America after WW2 - the Marshall Plan, the principal carrier of the cold war costs in Europe and Asia, these are not the actions of a typical colonial power.
Much of what America has done has been done to defend itself with an understanding that Allies (Britain and Commonwealth excepted) will not/cannot do the job for themselves. I don't have any casualty figures for American "colonialism" in the Philippines (and I doubt you do either) nor any means of comparing American actions there with Dutch colonial activity in Java and elsewhere, but I do know that Americans have again and again put blood and treasure on the line to try and improve the living conditions and the fate of people in unfortunate situations from Afghanistan to (recently) the Philippines. Interesting that many in that country are wishing that the days of Scubic Bay and Clark AFB weren't over and done with.
No country on earth - no society on earth - is easier to criticize than America, and that is why I used the food posters, as I did. Unless Holland, Belgium, Italy, France, Germany, Greece, Turkey, etc. etc. etc. are willing to step up with blood and treasure to combat events such as 9/11, then, the citizens of these countries are delusional (and I include my own country in that assessment) about the realities of peace and prosperity.
Defense is not free. Democracy is not a given. Free speech and free markets have to be fought for by every generation.
In my opinion, Marcel, you can't complain about those who sacrifice to defend your interests while freely accepting their services .... without being a hypocrite. And yes, America may very well be hypocritical about its colonial past, but, when push comes to shove America has responded with sacrifice. Contrast this response with the EU's impotence in the Balkans after Yugoslavia dissolved into tribalism ..... they had to get America involved when the matter should have been settled by the EU.
So I'll end the rant .... but the word colonialism is about as meaningful as the communist concept of peace or the Muslim concept of freedom of expression, IMHO.
MM
Proud Canadian
silence
Senior Airman
Actually, you can complain - rather criticize. We Americans often don't live up to our own ideals, but, then, that's the same for any country.
When we make a mistake we should be criticized, but critiques should be positive if possible. I criticize my country frequently, but I do so because I love her. I am not one of those who believe the US is the end-all-be-all, but rather because to be that is something worth striving for. We fought a horrid Civil War to make ourselves better. We tried prohibition to make ourselves better, and when it failed we dumped it. When our politicians screw up we call them on it. We're very much a two-steps forward one-step back nation, but that still equates to one step forward. Even Cuba wasn't about colonialism - or else we wouldn't have had to keep sending the Marines in over and over. Its been said that we should have bypassed the Philippines in WW2, but we instead we kicked Imperial Japan out. Heck, if one considers all the territory we took in the Pacific in WW2, we could have had for ourselves what Japan went to war for.
Some in the US say Reagan won the cold war. I say it was Truman and the Truman doctrine because with that we stopped looking internally and started looking globally with the promise to help anyone who wanted to be free or maintain their freedom. Sometimes we went too far, and sometimes perhaps not far enough. But, BUT we didn't back down. And all the fighting we have done has not been about colonialism (though I admit to still being undecided about Iraq, but I was against that from the start). A lot of Americans feel we deserve more overt thanks, but maybe the simple fact that countries are now - for the most part - behaving peacefully is a kind of thanks.
So I guess what I'm saying - kinda - is criticize but don't bitch and complain. Honest criticism can be very helpful since often times we (people and nations) sometimes overlook the obvious things. But if you want to criticize us, you're giving us the right to do the same to you.
(jeez, talk about rambling....)
When we make a mistake we should be criticized, but critiques should be positive if possible. I criticize my country frequently, but I do so because I love her. I am not one of those who believe the US is the end-all-be-all, but rather because to be that is something worth striving for. We fought a horrid Civil War to make ourselves better. We tried prohibition to make ourselves better, and when it failed we dumped it. When our politicians screw up we call them on it. We're very much a two-steps forward one-step back nation, but that still equates to one step forward. Even Cuba wasn't about colonialism - or else we wouldn't have had to keep sending the Marines in over and over. Its been said that we should have bypassed the Philippines in WW2, but we instead we kicked Imperial Japan out. Heck, if one considers all the territory we took in the Pacific in WW2, we could have had for ourselves what Japan went to war for.
Some in the US say Reagan won the cold war. I say it was Truman and the Truman doctrine because with that we stopped looking internally and started looking globally with the promise to help anyone who wanted to be free or maintain their freedom. Sometimes we went too far, and sometimes perhaps not far enough. But, BUT we didn't back down. And all the fighting we have done has not been about colonialism (though I admit to still being undecided about Iraq, but I was against that from the start). A lot of Americans feel we deserve more overt thanks, but maybe the simple fact that countries are now - for the most part - behaving peacefully is a kind of thanks.
So I guess what I'm saying - kinda - is criticize but don't bitch and complain. Honest criticism can be very helpful since often times we (people and nations) sometimes overlook the obvious things. But if you want to criticize us, you're giving us the right to do the same to you.
(jeez, talk about rambling....)
The problem is that most Americans don't think like you. They believe that they have the right to criticize, complain and bitch about other nations, but don't dare do it to the USA.
It is the usual "God Bless Murica!" crowd that think that way.
I say this as an American. I feel fortunate to have lived over half my life in Europe. I get a good insight in both places. It gives me a good insight in our faults in our country, as well as the faults of Europe as well.
silence
Senior Airman
The only other country I've been exposed to is Canada: love the beer and hockey, but vinegar on french fries? C'mon, man, that's just wrong in so many ways.
michaelmaltby
Colonel
".. but vinegar on french fries? "
Not just any vinegar .... malt vinegar. A colonial legacy from the UK, IIRC.
To me, the travesty is mayo on fries .
Not just any vinegar .... malt vinegar. A colonial legacy from the UK, IIRC.
To me, the travesty is mayo on fries .
vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
Malt Vinegar on Fish and Chips, YUM!
And I should not have said "most" Americans, but "many" Americans.
The only wsy to eat it.
I love mayo on fries. Must be the German in me.
I remember watching some US award show on the telly and Hugh Laurie was giving a speech about his performance in House after winning some award. His opening line was: "I'm from England, you know; we used to rule the world before you did."
The problem with threads like "Y'know what grinds my gears..." is that without intent, invariably someone gets offended. Rabbiting on about US foreign policy on a US forum is bound to upset the apple cart. Best to keep opinions to ourselves on controversial issues like this.
The problem with threads like "Y'know what grinds my gears..." is that without intent, invariably someone gets offended. Rabbiting on about US foreign policy on a US forum is bound to upset the apple cart. Best to keep opinions to ourselves on controversial issues like this.
silence
Senior Airman
Throw off those colonial chains, man!!
(Personally I think mayo is the ultimate condiment, but I still like catsup on my fires)
