drgondog
Major
Greg apparently had his feelings hurt by me regarding 'contrarian' views on his P-47 series regarding range, and now his recent 'breathless' breaking news about Fokker being the real engineering and production cadre that built P-51.
I am banned
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWr50TP0CWc&t=4169s
For those that can wade into 58 minute region I am referred to as 'butt hurt' author trying to prop up sales.
The posts that lurched me into the evildooer image was a point by point fact citation for reasons the P-47 was Not held back from true place of glory on the first Schweinfurt mission.
But the posts that apparently put me into the evildooer/must be banned penalty box was a point by point rebuttal of his conclusions that NAA could ONLY have built the Mustang with heritage Fokker team acquired by General Motors team, then named General Aviation Manufacturing Corp.
His conclusion; Edgar Schmued was Fokker Design, someone I don't know (and not on NAA org chart) was the production genius and Van Breese was responsible for NAA test group - all Fokker in his words - and were the catalysts for North American ascension as a builder of airplanes. He did note that a couple of executives came from Douglas in a passing swipe.
Those (unmentioned) execs were Kindelberger (former VP of Engineering at Douglas - and daddy of DC-1 and DC-2), Atwood (Asst Chief of Engineering at Douglas and Chief of Structures), Smithson (Chief of Production) along with Ray Rice.
Atwood became Chief, Engineering at NAA, Rice joined later as Asst Chief of Engineering and Smithson became VP Production. This is mid 1934 Mangement team first at GAMC, then NAA on Jan 1 1935.
Sadly Greg has no clue regarding actual operations at Fokker when GAMC was formed, nor understanding what was important when the F.10 crash killed Knute Rockne in early 1931.
Apparently he believes that Fokker was leading Fokker Atlantic engineering that designed the F.10 to compete with Ford Tri-motor - not so. Robert Noorduyn who came to US with Fokker in 1921, left Fokker in 1929. Apparently Greg believes that Edgard Schmued developed his talent as an engineer under the tutelage of Fokker Engineers. Not so, Schmued was hired just as Fokker resigned after Rockne crash. The new Chief's of engineering replacements were first Thaden from Pittsburgh Aircaft, renamed Metalaire in 1931 and acquired by GAMC in 1931.
The Department of Commerce - Aeronautical Division as a result of Rockne crash investigation issued edict concerning comercial passenger aircraft. No more wooded structural members for flight safety (F-10 deemed to have failed due to rotted wood wing spar).
At this moment in time there were several F.10 and F-8 Universal still on the line that were sold offshore. The Fokker XO-27 was flying with several orders for YO-27 nad one request for bomber version XB-7 - which Schmued worked on as first assignment. ALL Fokker designs and production airframes were of wood spar with plywood covered wings, steel tube and linen fuselages.
The Thaden T-2 and T-4 were welded tube metal covered fuselage with steel truss spar/linen covered wing now being built by Pittsburgh Aircraft when acquired by GAMC. The Pilgrim 150 was a low cantilever, steel tube, alclad covered wing plus steel tube structure, Alclad fuselage.
The second new boss was Virginius Clark (Clark Y airfoil) and former Chief, Engineering that designed the Fairchild-American Pilgrim 150. The boss and the Pilgrim 150 came in December 1931 - to replace Thaden. The 150 was assigned GA-43. It first flew May 1932. There wil be more on this later if you can stay awake.
By end of 1931, all metal single and twin engine aircraft are flying or on the Drawing Board. Included are B-9, Boeing Model 200, Douglas DC-1 and Boeing 247. GAMC ses the handwriting on the wall - which is why Fokker is not only effectively DOA for future design in commercial aircraft due to lack of inhouse expertise in either sheet metal fabrication or aerodynamics, or airframe structure analytic for these new technologies.
Compare Fokker F.10 to the soon to be introduced Douglas DC-1. The DC-1 could take off an fly on one engine. ALL Alclad stressed skin construction, twin engines, 10 passenger, flaps, and retractable landing gear.
But a little bit about NAA. It was a Holding company specializing in commercial air transport companies and airframe manufacturers. It acquired Eastern Airlines, Curtis Aircraft, SperyGyroscope. 40% Douglas Aircraft, then Berliner Joyce Aircraft, then GAMC. When NAA acquired GAMC, it consolidated three plants to one at Dundalk MD with approximately 150-200 employees remaining - then in turn was acquired by GM and divested of all commercial airlines save Eastern Airlines.
Summary, end of 1934.
All Teteboro Fokker/GAMC/Pittsburgh Aircraft aircraft had been completed, delivered, shut down.
American Pilgram 150/GAMC GA-43 completed at Dundalk as first actual NAA aircraft produced.
Berliner Joyce new development complete, only new orders for SOC-1 & -2 steel, welded floats are in production.
Senior management team execs Kindelberger (CEO), Atwood (Chief Engineering), Smithson (VP Production), Bowen (Production Engineer and future X73 project manager, then Asst Plant Manager at new Dallas Plant), Hansen (Chief Project Enginering) - ALL from Douglas Aircraft
Key Managers and future key employees Rice (Asst Chief, Engineering) - Douglas Aircraft, Schlecher (Chief, Airframe structures) and Baldwin (Project Engineer) and Rudd (tool & die maker who rose to VP&Gen Mgr NAA Columbus Div) came from Berliner Joyce. Schmued (Preliminary Design engineer at acquisition by NAA (GAMC)
Summary-
Every design produced by NAA from XO-47 (GA-15) and BT-9 (NA-16) through XB-21, BC-1, Export Fighter NA-44, AT-6, NA-40, B-25, P-51 were led by Atwood through 1939, Rice thereafter. Douglas origins.
Schmued became Chief, Preliminary Design in 1939 wth first effort the P-509/X73. The project team was matrixed but still in Rice's Engineering department.
The Production quality was driven by Kindelberger with focus on speed, quality and ever decreasing Cost. Smithson and imbedded project engineers worked closely with Design with an eye towards actual process, and process flow.
Schmued's genius were two fold. A superb intuitive feel for aerodynamic shape and ability to pick/lead and manage a preliminary design team to a schedule the preliminary designs.
Schmued also the driver for the development and implementation of Projective Geometry of applied conical sections. He pushed, Roy Liming constructed the application to the Lofting developments.
Additional Oddities
Nothing from Fokker related to manufacturing excellence, specifically not 'butt joint quality production that Greg cites as reason speed advantage over Spitfire. Curiously he didn't mention wing or Meredith effect as 'other reasons' for performance but all those lay at feet of Smithson, and Rudd including flush rivet passion and development of 7075 skin deelopment and techniques later. Nothing from Fokker instituted filling, sealing, priming and painting wing to achieve surface quality independent of butt joint construction.
Nothing from Fokker instructed Ed horkey, Ashkenas, Beerer (all Cal Tech grads) in the fine art of airfoil development, aerodynamics, performance analyss or Meredith effect cooling system design - the latter a far larger difference maker than butt joint construction.
Nothing from Fokker introduced alclad sheet stress panel analysis and design that was cornerstone of NAA quality and strength.
Greg cites Van Breese as one of the Fokker trained giants that vaulted the Mustang into glory?
Well, interesting that Van Breesehad his own aircraft company 1927-1934. Breese Aircraft Company. last operating at Mines Field. He co-designed the Vultee V-1. Was bought out during the Vultee consilidation. He DID consult with Fokker Netherlands as a Demonstrator test pilot for Various Fokker designs attempting to gain a foothold in 1937. From that approximate time he was basically a full time test pilot and consultant including a stint with NAA in 1939/40 for the NA-44 and then 73X
Now for the other side of the ledger.
The rapidity and excellence of the first big success of NAA Design - the NA-16 BT-9 - had a large contingent of Dutch speaking shop team that worked 18x7 to get the prototpe done in time to win against Seversky. While the GA-43 was largely GAMC (Pilgrim) workers, the BT-9 was welded steel tube fuselage and fabric covering for fuselage and wing - right in the strike zone for the surviving Fokker (and Berliner Joyce) cadre that made the trip to Dundalk.
If anyone feels like stirring up some stuff in Greg's new video, you have my permssion to cut and paste. Warning - you may get banned.
Sincerely,
Butthurt
I am banned
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWr50TP0CWc&t=4169s
For those that can wade into 58 minute region I am referred to as 'butt hurt' author trying to prop up sales.
The posts that lurched me into the evildooer image was a point by point fact citation for reasons the P-47 was Not held back from true place of glory on the first Schweinfurt mission.
But the posts that apparently put me into the evildooer/must be banned penalty box was a point by point rebuttal of his conclusions that NAA could ONLY have built the Mustang with heritage Fokker team acquired by General Motors team, then named General Aviation Manufacturing Corp.
His conclusion; Edgar Schmued was Fokker Design, someone I don't know (and not on NAA org chart) was the production genius and Van Breese was responsible for NAA test group - all Fokker in his words - and were the catalysts for North American ascension as a builder of airplanes. He did note that a couple of executives came from Douglas in a passing swipe.
Those (unmentioned) execs were Kindelberger (former VP of Engineering at Douglas - and daddy of DC-1 and DC-2), Atwood (Asst Chief of Engineering at Douglas and Chief of Structures), Smithson (Chief of Production) along with Ray Rice.
Atwood became Chief, Engineering at NAA, Rice joined later as Asst Chief of Engineering and Smithson became VP Production. This is mid 1934 Mangement team first at GAMC, then NAA on Jan 1 1935.
Sadly Greg has no clue regarding actual operations at Fokker when GAMC was formed, nor understanding what was important when the F.10 crash killed Knute Rockne in early 1931.
Apparently he believes that Fokker was leading Fokker Atlantic engineering that designed the F.10 to compete with Ford Tri-motor - not so. Robert Noorduyn who came to US with Fokker in 1921, left Fokker in 1929. Apparently Greg believes that Edgard Schmued developed his talent as an engineer under the tutelage of Fokker Engineers. Not so, Schmued was hired just as Fokker resigned after Rockne crash. The new Chief's of engineering replacements were first Thaden from Pittsburgh Aircaft, renamed Metalaire in 1931 and acquired by GAMC in 1931.
The Department of Commerce - Aeronautical Division as a result of Rockne crash investigation issued edict concerning comercial passenger aircraft. No more wooded structural members for flight safety (F-10 deemed to have failed due to rotted wood wing spar).
At this moment in time there were several F.10 and F-8 Universal still on the line that were sold offshore. The Fokker XO-27 was flying with several orders for YO-27 nad one request for bomber version XB-7 - which Schmued worked on as first assignment. ALL Fokker designs and production airframes were of wood spar with plywood covered wings, steel tube and linen fuselages.
The Thaden T-2 and T-4 were welded tube metal covered fuselage with steel truss spar/linen covered wing now being built by Pittsburgh Aircraft when acquired by GAMC. The Pilgrim 150 was a low cantilever, steel tube, alclad covered wing plus steel tube structure, Alclad fuselage.
The second new boss was Virginius Clark (Clark Y airfoil) and former Chief, Engineering that designed the Fairchild-American Pilgrim 150. The boss and the Pilgrim 150 came in December 1931 - to replace Thaden. The 150 was assigned GA-43. It first flew May 1932. There wil be more on this later if you can stay awake.
By end of 1931, all metal single and twin engine aircraft are flying or on the Drawing Board. Included are B-9, Boeing Model 200, Douglas DC-1 and Boeing 247. GAMC ses the handwriting on the wall - which is why Fokker is not only effectively DOA for future design in commercial aircraft due to lack of inhouse expertise in either sheet metal fabrication or aerodynamics, or airframe structure analytic for these new technologies.
Compare Fokker F.10 to the soon to be introduced Douglas DC-1. The DC-1 could take off an fly on one engine. ALL Alclad stressed skin construction, twin engines, 10 passenger, flaps, and retractable landing gear.
But a little bit about NAA. It was a Holding company specializing in commercial air transport companies and airframe manufacturers. It acquired Eastern Airlines, Curtis Aircraft, SperyGyroscope. 40% Douglas Aircraft, then Berliner Joyce Aircraft, then GAMC. When NAA acquired GAMC, it consolidated three plants to one at Dundalk MD with approximately 150-200 employees remaining - then in turn was acquired by GM and divested of all commercial airlines save Eastern Airlines.
Summary, end of 1934.
All Teteboro Fokker/GAMC/Pittsburgh Aircraft aircraft had been completed, delivered, shut down.
American Pilgram 150/GAMC GA-43 completed at Dundalk as first actual NAA aircraft produced.
Berliner Joyce new development complete, only new orders for SOC-1 & -2 steel, welded floats are in production.
Senior management team execs Kindelberger (CEO), Atwood (Chief Engineering), Smithson (VP Production), Bowen (Production Engineer and future X73 project manager, then Asst Plant Manager at new Dallas Plant), Hansen (Chief Project Enginering) - ALL from Douglas Aircraft
Key Managers and future key employees Rice (Asst Chief, Engineering) - Douglas Aircraft, Schlecher (Chief, Airframe structures) and Baldwin (Project Engineer) and Rudd (tool & die maker who rose to VP&Gen Mgr NAA Columbus Div) came from Berliner Joyce. Schmued (Preliminary Design engineer at acquisition by NAA (GAMC)
Summary-
Every design produced by NAA from XO-47 (GA-15) and BT-9 (NA-16) through XB-21, BC-1, Export Fighter NA-44, AT-6, NA-40, B-25, P-51 were led by Atwood through 1939, Rice thereafter. Douglas origins.
Schmued became Chief, Preliminary Design in 1939 wth first effort the P-509/X73. The project team was matrixed but still in Rice's Engineering department.
The Production quality was driven by Kindelberger with focus on speed, quality and ever decreasing Cost. Smithson and imbedded project engineers worked closely with Design with an eye towards actual process, and process flow.
Schmued's genius were two fold. A superb intuitive feel for aerodynamic shape and ability to pick/lead and manage a preliminary design team to a schedule the preliminary designs.
Schmued also the driver for the development and implementation of Projective Geometry of applied conical sections. He pushed, Roy Liming constructed the application to the Lofting developments.
Additional Oddities
Nothing from Fokker related to manufacturing excellence, specifically not 'butt joint quality production that Greg cites as reason speed advantage over Spitfire. Curiously he didn't mention wing or Meredith effect as 'other reasons' for performance but all those lay at feet of Smithson, and Rudd including flush rivet passion and development of 7075 skin deelopment and techniques later. Nothing from Fokker instituted filling, sealing, priming and painting wing to achieve surface quality independent of butt joint construction.
Nothing from Fokker instructed Ed horkey, Ashkenas, Beerer (all Cal Tech grads) in the fine art of airfoil development, aerodynamics, performance analyss or Meredith effect cooling system design - the latter a far larger difference maker than butt joint construction.
Nothing from Fokker introduced alclad sheet stress panel analysis and design that was cornerstone of NAA quality and strength.
Greg cites Van Breese as one of the Fokker trained giants that vaulted the Mustang into glory?
Well, interesting that Van Breesehad his own aircraft company 1927-1934. Breese Aircraft Company. last operating at Mines Field. He co-designed the Vultee V-1. Was bought out during the Vultee consilidation. He DID consult with Fokker Netherlands as a Demonstrator test pilot for Various Fokker designs attempting to gain a foothold in 1937. From that approximate time he was basically a full time test pilot and consultant including a stint with NAA in 1939/40 for the NA-44 and then 73X
Now for the other side of the ledger.
The rapidity and excellence of the first big success of NAA Design - the NA-16 BT-9 - had a large contingent of Dutch speaking shop team that worked 18x7 to get the prototpe done in time to win against Seversky. While the GA-43 was largely GAMC (Pilgrim) workers, the BT-9 was welded steel tube fuselage and fabric covering for fuselage and wing - right in the strike zone for the surviving Fokker (and Berliner Joyce) cadre that made the trip to Dundalk.
If anyone feels like stirring up some stuff in Greg's new video, you have my permssion to cut and paste. Warning - you may get banned.
Sincerely,
Butthurt
Last edited:
(for the signature . .)
