Another Lockheed 12A Mishap

[MIflyer]

From Avweb. No one killed but there are serious injuries.

"For the second time in three days a relatively rare vintage Lockheed 12A Junior Electra has crashed, this time in Georgia and with no fatalities. Three people aboard the plane were seriously injured when the plane apparently went off the runway and hit a tree at Seven Lakes Airport in Jackson, Georgia. The airport has a 2950-foot turf runway. The accident occurred at about 8 p.m. The aircraft is registered to a company based in Jackson and is well known in the area."

 

[RichardSuhkoi]

From Avweb. No one killed but there are serious injuries.

"For the second time in three days a relatively rare vintage Lockheed 12A Junior Electra has crashed, this time in Georgia and with no fatalities. Three people aboard the plane were seriously injured when the plane apparently went off the runway and hit a tree at Seven Lakes Airport in Jackson, Georgia. The airport has a 2950-foot turf runway. The accident occurred at about 8 p.m. The aircraft is registered to a company based in Jackson and is well known in the area."

View attachment 784152

I look forward to reading about cause. That crash a few years ago

From Avweb. No one killed but there are serious injuries.

"For the second time in three days a relatively rare vintage Lockheed 12A Junior Electra has crashed, this time in Georgia and with no fatalities. Three people aboard the plane were seriously injured when the plane apparently went off the runway and hit a tree at Seven Lakes Airport in Jackson, Georgia. The airport has a 2950-foot turf runway. The accident occurred at about 8 p.m. The aircraft is registered to a company based in Jackson and is well known in the area."

View attachment 784152

I look forward to reading about cause. My whole perspective of vintage operators changed after the 2019 B-17 crash. If I remember correctly, they ignored published ignition system maintenance. All plugs fouled. Since I'm ranting about that now I will go on. - I have spoken with operators who told me they pulled one plug from each cylinder at very frequent intervals and had them cleaned by pyrolysis (baking with or without ozone). People in the past would incorrectly use grit blast which is completely wrong. The ceramic insulator has glaze which is eroded by the grit, and the grit gets wedged, and it erodes electrodes. So anyway the cost of periodic cleaning is so low that you scrap the plugs due to electrode spark erosion and never experience weak ignition due carbon shorting. Reportedly the B-17 people ran their plugs until they failed mag drop as they were confident they had tons of power given light payloads.

 

[Ace1959]

From Avweb. No one killed but there are serious injuries.

"For the second time in three days a relatively rare vintage Lockheed 12A Junior Electra has crashed, this time in Georgia and with no fatalities. Three people aboard the plane were seriously injured when the plane apparently went off the runway and hit a tree at Seven Lakes Airport in Jackson, Georgia. The airport has a 2950-foot turf runway. The accident occurred at about 8 p.m. The aircraft is registered to a company based in Jackson and is well known in the area."

View attachment 784152

If I would have a guess my opinion would say both brakes went out or the right one went bad on landing. Another possibility is landing too long. But I bet its a brake issue.

 

[Ace1959]

If I would have a guess my opinion would say both brakes went out or the right one went bad on landing. Another possibility is landing too long. But I bet its a brake issue.

According to YouTube it may be a unlocked tail wheel. However both main landing gear were overhauled just prior to accident.

 

[special ed]

I look forward to reading about cause. That crash a few years ago

I look forward to reading about cause. My whole perspective of vintage operators changed after the 2019 B-17 crash. If I remember correctly, they ignored published ignition system maintenance. All plugs fouled. Since I'm ranting about that now I will go on. - I have spoken with operators who told me they pulled one plug from each cylinder at very frequent intervals and had them cleaned by pyrolysis (baking with or without ozone). People in the past would incorrectly use grit blast which is completely wrong. The ceramic insulator has glaze which is eroded by the grit, and the grit gets wedged, and it erodes electrodes. So anyway the cost of periodic cleaning is so low that you scrap the plugs due to electrode spark erosion and never experience weak ignition due carbon shorting. Reportedly the B-17 people ran their plugs until they failed mag drop as they were confident they had tons of power given light payloads.

Interesting, new to me, plug cleaning procedure. In the early 1960s the "grit" system was used at our reserve base, C-119s. We were allowed to clean our car plugs if not too often.

 

[RichardSuhkoi]

If I would have a guess my opinion would say both brakes went out or the right one went bad on landing. Another possibility is landing too long. But I bet its a brake issue.

I guess possibly also tyre fail?

 

[MIflyer]

If I would have a guess my opinion would say both brakes went out or the right one went bad on landing.

On Youtube they mention an identical mishap with a 12A where the pilot gave it too much Left rudder, but I would bet on a brake problem.

I had a recent problem with my airplane pulling sharply to the Left when the brakes were applied; it would have been a real problem if it had not been a steerable nosewheel equipped nosedragger. Took the Left brake off and all looked fine, except possibly a small smear of grease on one pad. I cleaned everything but the problem persisted. So my A&P suggested swapping the right and left brake pads and sure enough, the problem switched to the Right brake, although greatly reduced. It is almost gone now.

 

[Simon Thomas]

Dan Gryder was in the right seat, and in his yootoobe video he says it was a right brake failure.

 

[RichardSuhkoi]

On Youtube they mention an identical mishap with a 12A where the pilot gave it too much Left rudder, but I would bet on a brake problem.

I had a recent problem with my airplane pulling sharply to the Left when the brakes were applied; it would have been a real problem if it had not been a steerable nosewheel equipped nosedragger. Took the Left brake off and all looked fine, except possibly a small smear of grease on one pad. I cleaned everything but the problem persisted. So my A&P suggested swapping the right and left brake pads and sure enough, the problem switched to the Right brake, although greatly reduced. It is almost gone now.

To my surprise gear oils and greases cause locking of brakes. The belief is that the grease may lubricate momentarily but as it heats it hits a polymerization phase and attempts to glue the disc or drum to the pad. Washing in chlorothene a few times helps break up the deposit, high risk fix is a torch (risks delaminating the pad), but oven soak at say 190 degC for several hours causes the grease to mostly Coke, or, by using it the braking heat will accomplish the same thing.

 

[special ed]

If any members drove old cars with drum brakes, you will know when grease or brake fluid gets on the brake shoes. That wheel's brake will momentarily lock with appropriate tire squeal. Modern Brake cleaner in spray cans is same as pixie dust to eliminate the grease.

 

[RichardSuhkoi]

If any members drove old cars with drum brakes, you will know when grease or brake fluid gets on the brake shoes. That wheel's brake will momentarily lock with appropriate tire squeal. Modern Brake cleaner in spray cans is same as pixie dust to eliminate the grease.

Well, in many countries they have prohibited the "hydrohalocarbons" such as perchloroethylene, Chlorothene. These were super at cutting the long organic chains in hydrocarbons so the thick oil became a mix of thin oils and evaporated. But, they are linked to Parkinson's disease. New, flammable brake cleaners work but performance varies greatly with the blend. I have one here that is very weak. A different one I have with hexane is very good.

 

[Sabrejet]

If I would have a guess my opinion would say both brakes went out or the right one went bad on landing. Another possibility is landing too long. But I bet its a brake issue.

Not exactly a guess since Gryder confirmed it last week and re-stated it in detail during his live chat on Sunday.

 

[GrauGeist]

If any members drove old cars with drum brakes, you will know when grease or brake fluid gets on the brake shoes. That wheel's brake will momentarily lock with appropriate tire squeal. Modern Brake cleaner in spray cans is same as pixie dust to eliminate the grease.

After the govment protected us from scary chemicals, we used MEK to clean shoes/pads - eliminates petroleum based contaminants without delaminating the brake shoe/pad material.
It evaporates a bit slower, but works perfectly.

 

[cvairwerks]

In my book, it would take notarized statements from multiple witnesses if DG told me my butt was on fire, before I would believe him.

 

[GregP]

If I would have a guess my opinion would say both brakes went out or the right one went bad on landing. Another possibility is landing too long. But I bet its a brake issue.

Speculation is not good. You weren't there and don't know.

 

[Snautzer01]

Speculation is not good. You weren't there and don't know.

See post 8. He was on the plane and said brakes.

 

[Airborne2001]

How awful. ): I hope everyone involved can make speedy recoveries both physically and mentally.

 

[MiTasol]

After the govment protected us from scary chemicals, we used MEK to clean shoes/pads - eliminates petroleum based contaminants without delaminating the brake shoe/pad material.
It evaporates a bit slower, but works perfectly.

If you dip you fingers in MEK it can be detected in your breath within seconds. Despite that it is relatively benign unless mixed with other chemicals.

A MEK plus toluene (also known as toluol) mix killed a large number of RAAF personnel in the 90s. They were wearing full hazmat and using compressed breathing air but it was permeating the breathing air lines and the unit medics were asleep on the job. In came a locum medic and all hell let loose.

EDIT - toluene is also fairly benign on its own. Toluene is also a by-product in cigarette smoke.

 

[GrauGeist]

Back in the day, carb cleaner and brake parts cleaner contained trichlorethane 1,1,1 whose danger was only surpassed by it's effectiveness.

When I recently bought a gallon of carb parts dip (my old stuff has evaporated over the years from disuse), I knew it was going to suck because the parts basket was plastic.
My old MacKay's chem-dip would have dissolved that plastic in a few minutes...

 

[MiTasol]

As you say - trichlorethane was great - especially in vapour baths. But you had to watch to make sure people working near the vapour bath did not start showing signs of intoxication.