MacArther
Staff Sergeant
No prob, glad to help. It just irks me that a game that portrays such a great unit would get something so simple wrong. I mean, a Panzerfaust being a HE weapon that defeats 44mm of armor!!??? What is wrong with them!??
Anti-tank weapons
- Thread starter Erich
- Start date
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CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
You mean a HEAT weapon.
MacArther
Staff Sergeant
Nope, the game called it a HE weapon........
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
All right but is a HEAT, High Explosive Anti Tank.
MacArther
Staff Sergeant
I'm well aware, but the game people seem to be lacking in terms of their knowledge base.
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
edited
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
One more photo of the luftwaffe "panzerwurfmine", fin stabilized hand-trowing antitank grenade.
Luckily for the german antitank soldiers someone design the Panzerfaust....
Luckily for the german antitank soldiers someone design the Panzerfaust....
parsifal
Colonel
Cant add too much to this discussion, but thought i would have my two cents worth
In the early war period, ie the most effective AT weapons were the French 75, the German 88mm the Russian 76 mm, and the british 25 pounder. French 25mm was too light, the 47 mm okay, but in short supply. British 2 pdr was a good gun, but had a design fault in that it could not fire HE. German 37mm AT of the early war period was found to be nearly useless, but remained first line material until the end of 1941
German 88s were not that common at the earlier parts of the war, and they found their 37mm AT weapons completely inadequate. Even the 50mm that supplanted it was not fully effective. As a stop gap, they used the numerous 75mm captured french guns, well into 1942. Finally in 1942, the Germans produced the 75mm Pak 40. The only criticism that could possibly be levelled at the 75/40 was that it was not trully a squad weapon, and really needed a prime mover for proper transport. However, from 1942 it was the mainstay of german defences, and should have been the gun they concentrated on. It was more than adequate in performance, and cheap to build. At 12000 RM to build, compared to over 180000 for a panther tank, the Germans should have concentrated on these weapons in the last three years of the war. It was certainly the strategy favoured by Rommel.
British had a good early war AT gun with one fatal exception, it could not fire HE rounds, and so was always able to be picked off at range. Even the iotalian 47 Bohler Gun was able to fire HE, so the british were at a huge disdvantage becuase of this blunder
In the early war period, ie the most effective AT weapons were the French 75, the German 88mm the Russian 76 mm, and the british 25 pounder. French 25mm was too light, the 47 mm okay, but in short supply. British 2 pdr was a good gun, but had a design fault in that it could not fire HE. German 37mm AT of the early war period was found to be nearly useless, but remained first line material until the end of 1941
German 88s were not that common at the earlier parts of the war, and they found their 37mm AT weapons completely inadequate. Even the 50mm that supplanted it was not fully effective. As a stop gap, they used the numerous 75mm captured french guns, well into 1942. Finally in 1942, the Germans produced the 75mm Pak 40. The only criticism that could possibly be levelled at the 75/40 was that it was not trully a squad weapon, and really needed a prime mover for proper transport. However, from 1942 it was the mainstay of german defences, and should have been the gun they concentrated on. It was more than adequate in performance, and cheap to build. At 12000 RM to build, compared to over 180000 for a panther tank, the Germans should have concentrated on these weapons in the last three years of the war. It was certainly the strategy favoured by Rommel.
British had a good early war AT gun with one fatal exception, it could not fire HE rounds, and so was always able to be picked off at range. Even the iotalian 47 Bohler Gun was able to fire HE, so the british were at a huge disdvantage becuase of this blunder
MacArther
Staff Sergeant
Anyone have something on the thermos bombs and other allied anti-tank grenades? I'm especially interested in the ones that the airborne troops would have carried.
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
The french 75 is a field gun, could be used as AT weapon is not its main objetive. The same goes for the 25 pounder perhaps is alittle worst for the antitank job since it have a separate loading wich gave a mediocre rate of fire.
I would say In the 1939-40 was the 2 pounder and the 88 even the 88s were an improvisated measure.
parsifal
Colonel
true enough about the 75 and the 25 pounders. however, towards the end of the french campaign, the 75 was used as a direct fire weapon, in the quadrillage defence networks set up by Weygand. firing over open sights, even with HE rounds, they proved very effective against the Light tabnks being fielded by the germans. The field gun mount was a problem, because it did not allow adequate traverse.
The germans addressed this in the latter part of 1941, after they had been surprised by the Russian heavy armour on the east front. they had noted the effectiveness of the 75 in the french campaign, along with its weaknesses. The solution was to mount the 75 on the 50mm Pak carriage. They fitted as muzzle break, and issued AP rounds. Initially the gun was found to be innaccurate, due to the lightness of the carriege, but this was eventually fixed (though i forget exactly how). From memory this 75mm Pak 97/38 was able to penetrate about 60mm at either 500 or 1000 yds (i forget to be honest) and was found to be adequate. Its one advantage over the 75 Pak 40 was that with a lighter carriage, it was somewhat man portable.
The 25 pounder was issued with solid shot AP rounds from an early stage. Having a combined HE and secondary AT capability proved to be the saviour for the Commonwealth Infantry in the early yearsd of the war. Wheras the 2 pounder could always be overcome at long range by HE firing tanks, this ability could be countered by the 25 pounders, who could engage the Light tanks of the Wehrmacht at all effective ranges. Whilst i agree that it was not an AT gun as such, it was probably the most effective AT weapon available to the CW forces from 1940-42.
Later, HE guns were still used against heavier tanks, but relied more on the effects of the HE direct hits to disable (by blast effects) as opposed to destroy (by armour penetration) the opposing tanks.
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Agreed, honestly I didnt knew that the 25 pounder had also armor piercing projectiles.
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
MacArther
Staff Sergeant
As cool as that looks, and damaging as it could be, I'd rather have an AT gun than a Piat and some satchells in that scenario. Still for what that group of ifantry has, that will be a nasty ambush.
I'm not possitive, but if I recall correctly, weren't the French 75mm field guns not issued AP perse, but rather HEAT rounds?
I'm not possitive, but if I recall correctly, weren't the French 75mm field guns not issued AP perse, but rather HEAT rounds?
parsifal
Colonel
I dont know...I do know that it was the Germans who developed the basic gun as a proper AT Gun. prior to that it was a field gun used in the AT Role. I know that I have read that the germans developed and produced an AT round for it, but am not sure if it was dedicated AP or HEAT. I do know that the gun fell short in performance to the later 75mm ATG produced by the Germans
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Kurfürst
Staff Sergeant
Schwarzpanzer.....what is your source for the 200 mm penetration of the 88 warhead...
Some figures, and also a very recommendable site:
Panzerschreck
Production of the Panzerschreck had changed to this successor model in October 1943. The new Raketenpanzerbüchse 54 weighed 11kg (24.2 lb.)(empty). It was also modified to fire the newly developed RPzB.Gr.4992 which with a modificaton of the propellant had a better practical range (usually cited at 180m). This ammunition too came in a summer and a winter version.The armor penetration of both RPzB.Gr. 4322 and 4992 was 230mm (9 in.), at a 60° impact angle this figure was reduced to 160mm (6.3 in.). The ammunition was transported in a carrying frame holding 5 rounds, the wooden supply crates contained 2 rounds.
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Interesting, honestly I believed the figures were lower.
