Ar 234B

[Milosh]

I have seen many references to the Ar 234B having internal 20mm cannons mounted in the fuselage for rear defense. What I have not come across is any details of the installation, or of them being used in combat.

Did the Ar 234B have these cannons or is this another WW2 myth?

 

[Capt. Vick]

It definately had it...or was it the C?

NOTE: Even before my Kiwi friend replied below, I meant to say some were equiped with the rearward facing cannon, or at least I have seen the throughs in the bottom of the rear fuselage for the instalation. I wonder if it WAS actually installed on these aircraft. I have to check my refs at home. I also wonder if it cut into the camera load in the rear or was this "R set" (so to speak) only installed on the bomber versions?

 

[Vincenzo]

in manual of 234 B-2 was not a word (almost i don't saw it) on it

manual it's available in luftwaffecockpitinstrumente

 

[A4K]

This is from the net: (The Arado Ar-234)

In principle, the Ar-234B had a pair of fixed rearward-firing 20 millimeter MG-151/20 cannon for protecting its tail, with the pilot sighting the guns through the periscope. Not only did the pilot have to be his own bombardier, he was his own tail gunner as well. However, the scheme was clumsy and if a pilot saw an Allied fighter behind him, he could just put on speed to lose it, dumping his external load if necessary. In practice the guns were not always fitted and were never an important feature of the aircraft. Armor plate was attached to the rear wall of the cockpit to give the pilot a little protection.

Evan

 

[davebender]

AR-234 max speed was supposedly 460 mph. You shouldn't need defensive weapons during 1944 to 1945.

 

[Milosh]

It definately had it...or was it the C?

NOTE: Even before my Kiwi friend replied below, I meant to say some were equiped with the rearward facing cannon, or at least I have seen the throughs in the bottom of the rear fuselage for the instalation. I wonder if it WAS actually installed on these aircraft. I have to check my refs at home. I also wonder if it cut into the camera load in the rear or was this "R set" (so to speak) only installed on the bomber versions?

The Smith/Creek Ar 234 book book shows a diagram for the rear cannons in the 'C'. They show this as a option to the camera equipment. The only guns mentioned for the 'B' were gun packs, both of forward and rear firing configurations. I have the impression that these might have been used in combat tests by the odd Ar 234.

 

[Erich]

the B had the rear facing 2cm weapons and as said the pilot tried and sometimes was successful in out running P-51's then again not ............. again another LW jet that could not turn on a dime and like the 262 the turning radius was long and about, terrible really

 

[Vincenzo]

Erich why if mg 151 there were not a word in the manual?

on turn rate, it's all a point of view thing, so you think what plane turn fastest at 450 mph a Me 262 or a P-51D?

 

[Erich]

as I do not own the manual I cannot say and do you think a 234 could turn at 450 mph ? doubtful.

have interviewed two pilots of the 8th AF flying P-51's that both have a 234 to their credit confirmed. interesting stories I will have to share how they got within striking distance. again I wonder on the inexperience of the LW pilots with a jet under their butts.

in the case of the 234 B the ports are in place on the pics whether the 2cm were installed could of been a tech issue and removed by the black men for fast recon duties, makes perfect sense to me to simply try and out run the Allied fighters if possible

 

[Vincenzo]

the manual it's available on luftwaffecockpitinstrument

i writed 262, but it's same you think that P-51D turn best of 234 at 430 mph?

 

[davebender]

Fighter vs bomber. If the P-51D can't turn better then an Ar-234 then something is wrong.

However the Ar-234 is considerably faster. So why are they dog fighting with P-51s?

 

[Vincenzo]

Davebander it's at that speed, never told of dogfighter also because afaik 234 it's w/o weaopn

 

[Erich]

that is perception and not reality.

case in point for the two pilots that I interviewed for my database and future title both were able to jump on the 234's the first pilot tired unsuccessfully 3 times to get an effective bounce till he forced G's and got within range and shot the jet down, it was on a failed bombing mission of the Remagen bridge and the jet pilot knew he was being chased and tried his best to avoid the blue nosed Mustang

 

[parsifal]

Fighter vs bomber. If the P-51D can't turn better then an Ar-234 then something is wrong.

However the Ar-234 is considerably faster. So why are they dog fighting with P-51s?

Is the AR 234 faster when combat loaded? If the P-51s are defending, the bomber will need to fight through to the target

 

[Vincenzo]

that is perception and not reality.

case in point for the two pilots that I interviewed for my database and future title both were able to jump on the 234's the first pilot tired unsuccessfully 3 times to get an effective bounce till he forced G's and got within range and shot the jet down, it was on a failed bombing mission of the Remagen bridge and the jet pilot knew he was being chased and tried his best to avoid the blue nosed Mustang

first this a episode. 2nd for true the mustang pilot don't know what doing arado pilot. 3rd what's the speed.

after there are all others on relative pilots skills, planes condition...

 

[davebender]

I think that argument has been thoroughly discredited by now. Loaded bombers cannot fight their way to the target.

Bombers need to be protected against enemy fighter aircraft. Otherwise they need to jettison their bombs when intercepted and attempt to head for home.

 

[riacrato]

Arado's approach was similar to the Mosquito and it should work equally well: The cruise speed with bombs was still very high and combined with low altitude approach made interception very had though not impossible. Sure Ar 234s were intercepted and shot down but comparably little.

 

[davebender]

I agree.

However if the enemy do manage to intercept then the bombing mission is terminated. Jettison the bombs and use your speed to evade. You won't accomplish anything useful by pushing on and getting shot down with a full bomb bay.

 

[parsifal]

Not necessarily. The Mosquitoes were slighhtly outclassed speed wise by Me 109s when empty, and greatly outpaced by them when loaded. Nevertheless even their cruise speeds were very high, comparatively. If a 109 was forced to open its throttles to try and catch a high speed bomber like the Mosquito, it would rapidly run out of puff. If the mosquito went very low, or very high, the performance envelopes of the 109 was even more disadvantaged.

I expect the Arado would use similar tactics, changes in altitude and speed, detours to tire out the pursuers etc.

It is not necessarily over for an "uninterceptable" bomber when it was interecepted

 

[zoomar]

It is my understanding that the 20mm cannon were rarely, if ever, fitted to operational 234Bs. While the 460mph maximum speed of the clean plane would normally have been adequate to allow one to evade combat, I believe they were slower when bombed up. On the other hand, attacks were often made in a low dive, which probably allowed effective air speeds approaching 500 mph.

I think one needs to be careful comparing the Arado with the Mosquito. Mosquitoes had the benefit of being powered by very reliable Merlin engines with a substantially greater endurance - allowing their pilots the ability to try all sorts of tactics to evade faster enemies. German WW2 jet engines were notoriously unreliable and prone to battle damage.