We were talking about the basic tactics used, not which one was superior over the other. And I always find it funny when people point out that Mosquito/Ar 234 top speed with bombs was less than that of the opposing force's fighters. That's a given and it didn't mean squat in the big picture. Realistically, only the Me 262 with XX(X?) mph speed advantage had a chance to intercept the Mosquito on a regular and thus strategically meaningful basis.
Ar 234B
- Thread starter Milosh
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R Leonard
Staff Sergeant
A USAAF translation of the pilot's notes for the Ar 234 B-2 from October 1944 makes no note of rear firing machine guns, though such reference could have been left out; little bit about bombing, nothing about machine guns. On the other hand, looking at the cockpit interior layout there is no triggering mechanism identified, either.
In another USAAF translation, this of "Arfahrungsbericht AR 234 B (Fernaufklärer)" which the AAF roughly translates as, "Report On Experiences With The AR 234 B - Long-Range Reconnaissance Airplane," (I don't read German so I presume the English title is reasonably accurate) there are these three mentions of machine guns:
In another USAAF translation, this of "Arfahrungsbericht AR 234 B (Fernaufklärer)" which the AAF roughly translates as, "Report On Experiences With The AR 234 B - Long-Range Reconnaissance Airplane," (I don't read German so I presume the English title is reasonably accurate) there are these three mentions of machine guns:
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- #25
AFAIK the MG151/20s and ammo containers were positioned in the bay for the cameras. I would say it is one or the other but not both.
R Leonard
Staff Sergeant
Looks from the diagram like the positioning of the MGs was on the underside and the cameras placed further aft.
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- #27
One camera is in the bay where the cannons and ammo containers are positioned. The second camera is in the next bay. The cannon barrels protrude from the third bay where the parachute is stored.
Drawing of a rocket assisted Ar 234 RAK, for illustration of the position of the second camera.
bobbysocks
Chief Master Sergeant
nice story on this aircraft with a videolink...i cant open it at work so dont know how good it is. there are other places to click that are intesting as well.
Arado Ar-234, summer 1944: no ordinary missions.
Huib's Aviation Books and Flying Wings Page
Arado Ar-234, summer 1944: no ordinary missions.
Huib's Aviation Books and Flying Wings Page
barneybolac
Airman 1st Class
Only the AR-234C had rear guns. No B model of any type carried them.
hurricane55
Airman
- 27
- Aug 2, 2012
Actually, the Ar 234B-2 could optionally be equipped with two rear firing 20 mm MG 151 cannons in the tail, but they were rarely installed, if ever. However, the Ar 234B-2 had no other defensive armament.
barneybolac
Airman 1st Class
Most recent books all say no guns at all on the B model. Had the ability to carry them none were fitted.
A few examples from recent books.
Here is a picture of a C model gunbay as well as the only two AR-234'S to be fitted with rear guns both are C models you can see the holes for the shell ejection as well as the holes for the guns.
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mikewint
Captain
The AR 234 was designed to have a max speed of 780 Km/hr but eventually the B-2 versions max was 742 at 6000m crusing at 700 Km/hr
The P-51 had a max speed of 703 Km/hr so a maxed out P-51 could just barely overtake a crusing 234
Like the Me 262 the jets greatest weakness was takeoffs and landings where most were shot down or sitting on the runway while they waited for fuel
The P-51 had a max speed of 703 Km/hr so a maxed out P-51 could just barely overtake a crusing 234
Like the Me 262 the jets greatest weakness was takeoffs and landings where most were shot down or sitting on the runway while they waited for fuel
No, the 234B never had any guns installed. They had always been planned but dropped for some reason. No aircraft manual even takes notice of them as optional installation or removal of parts belonging to them if the aircraft was to be reconfigured as recon (cameras placed in the location the guns/gun mountings would have been).
Gixxerman
Senior Airman
I made one of these C versions many years ago (but I can't recall guns ever being part of it - although I have seen them referred to in many books)
but I always thought the 4 seperate engines version the looker.....even if it does look like it needs a bigger wing
but I always thought the 4 seperate engines version the looker.....even if it does look like it needs a bigger wing
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
barneybolac
Airman 1st Class
C-3's had forward guns one had rear then it was war over. Test results on C-3 guns from one book I have.
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barneybolac
Airman 1st Class
vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
The C-2 could go 853 mph????
GregP
Major
This cracks me up! The P-51D had a wing loading at normal takeoff weight of 39.5 pounds per square foot while the Arado AR*-234B had a wing loading at normal takeoff weight of over 65 pounds per square foot.
OK, everyone, which one turns better at 450 mph? If you pick anything other than the P-51D, aerodynamics is not your strong suit. C'mon, the AR-234 is 18,000 to 22,000 pounds versus the Mustang at roughly 10,000 pounds max by the time it would encounter an AR-234. The speed doesn't matter at all. The g-available does. A P-51D Mustang can sustain considerably more g than an Arado AR 234 of any sort with heavy engines out on the wing. The g-available is better for the Mustang from stall to structural limit in both positive and negative operation, though neither one was a negative g-type aircraft. The jet engine would not even continue to run at sustained negagitive g-loads. The P-51 pilot could, in a pinch, simply pump the primer handle and continue to produce power at negative g though, in practice, combat in WWII was simply NOT much of a negative g affair.
The P-51 rolls better at any speed, pitches better at any speed, yaws better at any speed, and is all around much more responsive at any speed. The AR 234 is fast, but not nuch faster than a stock P-51D. 23 mph difference isn't decisive at all, ir either direction. If the Mustang had ANY altitude advantage, it could get to the AR 234's speed, and whether or not an intercept was possible depended on the speed and altitude difference between the two aircratf when both pilots became aware of the other one's presence and intentions. Of course, the AR-234's cruised at over 400 mph and the Mustang cruised at about 300 mph, give or take a few mph. But if the P-51's were expecting to encounter AR-234's. they would be cruising much faster and had a decent chance fior intercept. If the P-51's were flying escort, they probably would not leave the escort mission for an AR-234 intercept anyway since the mission was escort. If they were crusing at about 300 mph, and close to the same altitude, then the AR-234 was probably fairly safe unless the AR-234 pilot(s) were heading toward another P-51 formation and they got radio notification to power-up and intercept the jet.
The Germans only made about 210 or so AR 234's, so the 12,500 Mustangs didn't have to shoot down very many to make a dent in the jet population.
If planned and executed correctly, the AR-234 mission SHOULD have had a decent chance of survival but, in combat, plans don't generally survive first contact! The performance of the two was generally too close to give a decisive advantage to either one, though I'd say the Mustangs would generally be crusing slowly and thus would have to have a pretty decent altitude advantage to intercept. But, since they had flown from relatively far away and were at altitude and at cruise speed, they SHOULD have been generally highter than the Arados since the Arado didn't have much in the way of range. Sure, it COULD get high, but didn't have much range once it got there. The often-quoted 967 mile range for the AR-234 was a best case, correct altitude and speed range. The real operational range was considerably less and would deteroriate with power and altitude differences from ideal, so I think the Mustangs would have generally been higher unless they were straffing or attacking the ground. If so, the AR-234 was safe as can be. Oterhwise, it was a crap shoot with odds favoring the Arado, but not by all that much.
I say favoring teh Arado becasue I don;t think many P-51 pilots expected to encounter a jet bomber, so they would be more or less caught off guard. Still. 460 mph isn't much faster than an Me 109 or and Fw 190, so the visual finding of it wasn't all tath much different from finding and seeing a German piston fighter.
They certainly did that with skill.
OK, everyone, which one turns better at 450 mph? If you pick anything other than the P-51D, aerodynamics is not your strong suit. C'mon, the AR-234 is 18,000 to 22,000 pounds versus the Mustang at roughly 10,000 pounds max by the time it would encounter an AR-234. The speed doesn't matter at all. The g-available does. A P-51D Mustang can sustain considerably more g than an Arado AR 234 of any sort with heavy engines out on the wing. The g-available is better for the Mustang from stall to structural limit in both positive and negative operation, though neither one was a negative g-type aircraft. The jet engine would not even continue to run at sustained negagitive g-loads. The P-51 pilot could, in a pinch, simply pump the primer handle and continue to produce power at negative g though, in practice, combat in WWII was simply NOT much of a negative g affair.
The P-51 rolls better at any speed, pitches better at any speed, yaws better at any speed, and is all around much more responsive at any speed. The AR 234 is fast, but not nuch faster than a stock P-51D. 23 mph difference isn't decisive at all, ir either direction. If the Mustang had ANY altitude advantage, it could get to the AR 234's speed, and whether or not an intercept was possible depended on the speed and altitude difference between the two aircratf when both pilots became aware of the other one's presence and intentions. Of course, the AR-234's cruised at over 400 mph and the Mustang cruised at about 300 mph, give or take a few mph. But if the P-51's were expecting to encounter AR-234's. they would be cruising much faster and had a decent chance fior intercept. If the P-51's were flying escort, they probably would not leave the escort mission for an AR-234 intercept anyway since the mission was escort. If they were crusing at about 300 mph, and close to the same altitude, then the AR-234 was probably fairly safe unless the AR-234 pilot(s) were heading toward another P-51 formation and they got radio notification to power-up and intercept the jet.
The Germans only made about 210 or so AR 234's, so the 12,500 Mustangs didn't have to shoot down very many to make a dent in the jet population.
If planned and executed correctly, the AR-234 mission SHOULD have had a decent chance of survival but, in combat, plans don't generally survive first contact! The performance of the two was generally too close to give a decisive advantage to either one, though I'd say the Mustangs would generally be crusing slowly and thus would have to have a pretty decent altitude advantage to intercept. But, since they had flown from relatively far away and were at altitude and at cruise speed, they SHOULD have been generally highter than the Arados since the Arado didn't have much in the way of range. Sure, it COULD get high, but didn't have much range once it got there. The often-quoted 967 mile range for the AR-234 was a best case, correct altitude and speed range. The real operational range was considerably less and would deteroriate with power and altitude differences from ideal, so I think the Mustangs would have generally been higher unless they were straffing or attacking the ground. If so, the AR-234 was safe as can be. Oterhwise, it was a crap shoot with odds favoring the Arado, but not by all that much.
I say favoring teh Arado becasue I don;t think many P-51 pilots expected to encounter a jet bomber, so they would be more or less caught off guard. Still. 460 mph isn't much faster than an Me 109 or and Fw 190, so the visual finding of it wasn't all tath much different from finding and seeing a German piston fighter.
They certainly did that with skill.
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