Assessing the Dornier 335’s capabilities as a fighter (1 Viewer)

Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules

This is a rehash of previous discussions but since we are talking about proposed aircraft, my feelings are that Germany should have spent it development efforts on the clearly superior Me-262 and maybe other jets instead of aircraft like the Ta-152, and especially the Do-335, that were not going to provide significant advantages over the latest Allied aircraft such as the P-51H, P-51M, F4U-4, and the latest Spitfire marks.

Here's a comparison of the Do-335A1/5 to the XP-72, an allied aircraft whose very successful flight test program was cancelled because the Allies were moving on in technology. If we assume that the war had continued and jets were not becoming operational, and these two aircraft, whose development was parallel, met in the skies over Europe in the summer of '45, this is how they might match up.


Empty Weight-lbs
P-72 11476
Do 16280

Loaded Weight-lbs
P-72 14433
Do 21142

Length-ft
P-72 36.6
Dop 45.6

Wingspan-ft
P-72 40.9
Do 45.3

Wing Area- ft^2
P-72 300
Do 414.4

Wing Loading- lb/ ft^2
P-72 48.1
Do 51

Power–Hp(PS)
P-72 3450
Do 4800

P/W Loaded- hp/lb
P-72 .24
Do .23

Max Airspeed-mph
P-72 480 (tested, without turbo) to 490+ (est.)
Do 474

Climb Rate-ft/min
P-72 5280
Do 4600

Ceiling-ft
P-72 42,000
Do 38,000


I think it is apparent that the Do-335 would be at a disadvantage as it is exceeded my most all performance criteria.

Davparlr,

Lets remember that this is the performance of the Do-335A-0 in 1944, by mid 45 it was to powered by two even more powerful high altitude DB603 engines providing 2,700 hp each, plus a GM-1 system which would've increased the ceiling by atleast 10,000 ft. So by mid 45 when the P-72 would've entered service in europe the Do-335 would be hitting speeds of 500 mph and climb at 5,500 ft/min. So the Do-335 P-72 would've been very close.

Also regarding the wing loading, the Do-335 has a much higher Clmax no doubt, the wing being very thick and the airfoil being used optimized for great lifting capability. The P-72's wing was optimized more for all out speed.
 
Last edited:
If Mustangs and Tempests could successfully chase down a fighter that was 100mph faster (Me 262) why does anyone think that the Do335 would be a formidable threat to USAAF bomber fleets in 1945 - Given the coverage both for escort and sweeps?

Boom and Zoom has questionable sufficient advantage in performance to remain quasi invulnerable. There was always a high escort ~ 5000 feet above the bomners for at least one squadron over just about every wing at that stage of the war. 335 could definitely dive past to make initial attack but not sure of staying away from escorts even if after the initial attack.

It certainly would/should have been more effective than Fw 190 and me 109 but at what cost to the Me 262 deliveries?

I agree Bill. Concentrating on Me-262 development production would've been better.

The Do-335 was pushing the envelope for piston engined fighter development to its very limits, the jet age was on its way.
 
Agree with Bill Dave (amongst others), the right time for heavy, piston-engined (day) fighter was the 1st half of war. The plain-vanilla DB-601/605 design, weighting like Bf-110/P-38, with as much armament fuel it could've carried.
Every design aimed for 1944 and later needs jet engines to be worth bothering about.

The night fighter version is much more viable IMO.
 
The Do 335 was designed according to a requirement asking for a high-speed bomber / intruder / recon. In that role I think it could've been successful even in late '45, the only active design surpassing it in terms of speed being the Ar 234. But you have to ask yourself if those jet engines wouldn't have done a better job on top of He 162s, so the niche is still there for the Do.
 
Without the 30,000+ Me-109 light fighters the German air war would be lost during September 1939.

The 1936 to 1937 RLM competition for a complementary long range fighter is a different story. I'm all for an open competition. Note that at this early date we are thinking in terms of a single seat day fighter only. There is no radar operator and his associated equipment.

1937 RLM Heavy Fighter Competition (my version).
- All aircraft will be powered by DB600/DB601/DB605 engines. Thus we have a level playing field.
- Must be faster then an Me-109 when powered by the same engine version. A heavy fighter cannot dog fight a light fighter so high speed becomes the primary advantage.
- Like all Boom Zoom aircraft, this heavy fighter must have enough firepower to kill on a single brief diving pass.
- Like all Boom Zoom aircraft, climb and dive speed should be good.
- Like all Boom Zoom aircraft, handling characteristics must be good at high speed.
- No rear firing weapons for self defense. This is a fighter, not a light bomber.
- Combat radius of 500 miles with internal fuel. Enough to accompany typical medium bomber missions.
- External hard points for drop tanks or bombs. This provides additional mission flexibility.
- As with all German aircraft programs, production cost matters.
- Foreign aircraft companies are welcome to compete. I doubt Lockheed or North American can get a prototype P-38 or P-51 ready in time. But the door is open if they are up to the job.
- 1937 Germany does not have a large enough economy or military-industrial complex to produce more then one model of long range fighter. So the winner gets the entire contract.
- Initial production will be about 50 aircraft per month. This relatively expensive aircraft is a bomber escort, not a replacement for the dirt cheap Me-109 as a general purpose fighter aircraft.

You be the judge. Who wins the 1937 RLM heavy fighter competition?
 
Who wins?

Messerschmitt's 110 is as likely as any if you don't come up with different guns than the Germans had at the time. An escort fighter that runs out of ammo after after 8 seconds of firing time doesn't do you much good even if it has gas for 500 miles of radius. even switching to a 100 round drum only gets you 12-13 seconds firing time. Unless you fall back on the secondary MG installation like the Germans did but that does limit the effectiveness of the airplane.

trying to carry triple the amount of fuel per engine isn't going to do much for speed or climb vrs the single engine fighter either. Trying to use tricycle landing gear like a Do-335 is going to be heavier than a tail dragger design.
Then there is the radio question. While the Germans could make better radios than the British, a radio that will work at 500 miles will be a bit different than one that works at 150 miles. will it need a dedicated operator?

I have read that the radios in the 109 were single channel, pre-set before take off. It made cooperation difficult between different formations and ground control. British radios had 4 pre-sets.
What were the capabilities of the 110 radios?

If you need a rear seater to handle the radio and load the guns do you give him a rear MG or not?

Field length must also be considered. Boom and zoom is great but if your wing loading is so high that your take-off/landing speed keeps you from using a number of airfields (or keeps you grounded in certain weather conditions) what have you really gained in flexability?
 
In my opinion the Fw-187 was superior to the Me-110 in every way. The smaller Fw-187 is probably less expensive as well. So why would the Me-110 win?

An early model tandem engine Dornier fighter is the wild card. How does a Do-334 1/2 compare with the Fw-187? Remember they have identical engines. The Dornier fighter is lighter then the historical Do-335 (no weapons bay, no 2nd crew member, lighter engine mounts for the smaller engines etc.). Can Dornier even put together a practical fighter at this early date? They do have several decades experience with tandem engine seaplanes, most of which had excellent reputations.
 
With the Ta152 and Me262 coming online, the Do335 becomes less of a viable call as a fighter/interceptor. I imagine both of them were easier to build, less expensive and produced comparable, if not superior, performance. With those two coming online (the 152 and 262), stop production of the 109 and turn the 190 into a fighterbomber in the mold of the P47/Typhoon.

That being said, the Do becomes a better call when it comes down to recon, intruder and long range work. Figuring it could carry a very good fuel load in drop tanks, it could be used for maritime recon/intruder with an extra seat behind the pilot similar to that of the night fighter option. It has all the characteristics of being a very versitile platform.

As someone else noted, if it were available earlier, in leu of the the 110, it would've given the Luftwaffe a very useful bird to use in the Bay of Biscay and far out into the North Atlantic. Would definitely been able to handle any of the Allied types it would've ran into (Beaufighters, B24s, ect) and still carried enough armament to be a threat to shipping (allied hunter/killer groups, convoys, MTB, whatever it could get it's nose on) in and around the British Isles.

Kind of like the RAF anti-shipping strikes in reverse.
 
Davparlr,

Lets remember that this is the performance of the Do-335A-0 in 1944,

I'm confused. I used the data you presented on the first submittal that appeared was claimed for the A-1 and A-5, not the A-0. Remember the P-72 data is from early to mid 44 also.


by mid 45 it was to powered by two even more powerful high altitude DB603 engines providing 2,700 hp each, plus a GM-1 system which would've increased the ceiling by atleast 10,000 ft.

The R-4360 engine was successfully tested at a war emergency power of 4400 hp and, since, by 1945, the production P-47N R-2800 was making 2800 hp at 33,000 ft, this is not unreasonable.

So by mid 45 when the P-72 would've entered service in europe the Do-335 would be hitting speeds of 500 mph and climb at 5,500 ft/min. So the Do-335 P-72 would've been very close.

Since these planes were reaching the limit of propeller performance, I will agree.

I think my overall point is that the Do-335 was not a war winner in 1945 and German efforts should have emphasized the jets, in which they had a good lead. By fall of 1944, as Goering would say, the jig was up. No technology would save Germany. The advanced planes needed to be in use, in quantity, by the end of '43, early '44.
 
I'm confused. I used the data you presented on the first submittal that appeared was claimed for the A-1 and A-5, not the A-0. Remember the P-72 data is from early to mid 44 also.

I presented that data because, a. WW2 ended in May 45, b. The A-1 A-5 were also built and flown during WW2 and were ready to enter service. Had the war lasted till August the Do-335 would've recieved new and more powerful engines and a GM-1 boost system.

Now all of this would raised performance to the same level as that of the P-72, with a little extra speed climb rate to boot, but they'd be very close.

I think my overall point is that the Do-335 was not a war winner in 1945 and German efforts should have emphasized the jets, in which they had a good lead. By fall of 1944, as Goering would say, the jig was up. No technology would save Germany. The advanced planes needed to be in use, in quantity, by the end of '43, early '44.

Agreed.
 
Furthermore Lerche says the a/c was very stable in flight, so again not sure where red admiral gets his info from, but the A-0 atleast didn't feature any of the weaknesses he claims.

If you read the quote I posted from;

Dornier Do 335: The Luftwaffe's Fastest Piston-Engine Fighter by J. Richard Smith , Eddie J. Creek and Gerhard Roletschek

you'll see the stability problems mentioned, and the porpoising at high speeds from the radiator outlet doors.
 
Well the A-0 didn't feature these problems atleast, so it must have been early prototype issues.
 
In my opinion the Fw-187 was superior to the Me-110 in every way. The smaller Fw-187 is probably less expensive as well. So why would the Me-110 win?

An early model tandem engine Dornier fighter is the wild card. How does a Do-334 1/2 compare with the Fw-187? Remember they have identical engines. The Dornier fighter is lighter then the historical Do-335 (no weapons bay, no 2nd crew member, lighter engine mounts for the smaller engines etc.). Can Dornier even put together a practical fighter at this early date? They do have several decades experience with tandem engine seaplanes, most of which had excellent reputations.

The discussions about the Fw 187 have always been interesting to me simply because it offered great promise as a bomber destroyer and a better long range escort fighter for medium to medium high altitude envelopes. It might have been enough to turn the tide against the RAF during the BoB.

Having said this, the specific airframe a.) offered little growth capability for gross weight (i.e more internal weapons, extra fuel, intercooler to get much better high altitude performance, and b.) was limited in versatility vs the Me 110... so the competition wasn't the Me 110 - it was the 109 and the Fw 190 and it required two engines not one.
 
In my opinion the Fw-187 was superior to the Me-110 in every way. The smaller Fw-187 is probably less expensive as well. So why would the Me-110 win?

What was the actual armament of the FW 187 with rounds per gun of ammunition? If it is only 60 rounds per gun of cannon ammo I think we can see were some of the difference starts.

what was the range of the FW 187?

With a payload of under 3000lbs how much is available for fuel for your desired 500 mile combat radius?

you didn't answer the radio question.

to even begin to figure out what the best solution would be you need to specify what the armament load is, both guns and ammo. Figure out if a the radio needs a separate operator or not. figure out the fuel needed to fly the desired mission (radius at 300k/h or at 400k/h and at what height?) and see if all fits in the size fighter you are proposing.

The FW 187 would have made a better short range interceptor/day fighter. It would have made a lousier night fighter and/or long range over water patrol (anti anti-sub plane) and quite possibly not as good a fast fighter bomber.

same considerations for an early Do 335. What armament fit? what advantages over the 110? what disadvantages?
 
The discussions about the Fw 187 have always been interesting to me simply because it offered great promise as a bomber destroyer and a better long range escort fighter for medium to medium high altitude envelopes. It might have been enough to turn the tide against the RAF during the BoB.

Having said this, the specific airframe a.) offered little growth capability for gross weight (i.e more internal weapons, extra fuel, intercooler to get much better high altitude performance, and b.) was limited in versatility vs the Me 110... so the competition wasn't the Me 110 - it was the 109 and the Fw 190 and it required two engines not one.

I mus second these points. The Whirlwind suffered a similar fate. Obviously it made it into service but with a bit of support from those in charge and a little development, both aircraft may well have achieved great things.
 
offered little growth capability for gross weight
Neither did the Me-109. Yet it served admirabily for 10 years.


was limited in versatility vs the Me 110
We are talking about a long range bomber escort. Versitility is not a requirement anymore then it was with the P-51D.


What was the actual armament of the FW 187
That can be tweeked to meet the specific RLM requirement. Personally I would opt for 4 x 2cm cannon in the fuselage sides.


what was the range of the FW 187?
That also can be tweeked to meet the RLM requirement. For one thing the space historically occupied by a second crewmember can be occupied by a second fuel tank.


It would have made a lousier night fighter
Not part of the 1937 RLM requirement. In fact nobody had night fighters during 1937.


Figure out if a the radio needs a separate operator or not
I don't understand the issue here. Early war Japanese escort fighters often flew with no radio at all yet they worked just fine in places like Pearl Harbor, the Philippines, Malaya, Dutch East Idies etc. Whatever radio the Fw-187 has will be at least as good as those in the A6M2.
 
Neither did the Me-109. Yet it served admirabily for 10 years.

But not as an escort fighter, or a night fighter, or as a fighter bomber with more than a 250kg payload.


We are talking about a long range bomber escort. Versitility is not a requirement anymore then it was with the P-51D.
We don't seem to have the range yet of the FW 187 so we don't know if it would have made a long range escort fighter.


That can be tweeked to meet the specific RLM requirement. Personally I would opt for 4 x 2cm cannon in the fuselage sides.

Nice, it that four 20mm MG/FF with a single 60 round drum apiece?
one of two 20mm guns available to the Germans in 1937-40. I don't think you want to use the other one.
Now do we solve the combat duration problem by just firing 2 guns at a time?


That also can be tweeked to meet the RLM requirement. For one thing the space historically occupied by a second crewmember can be occupied by a second fuel tank.

I see, just " tweak" it. Replace 200lb crewman (including parachute) with how many lbs of fuel? 660lb of fuel keeps a SINGLE DB 601 running for how long?


Not part of the 1937 RLM requirement. In fact nobody had night fighters during 1937.

True. But what sort of pickle would the Germans have been in later when they needed night fighters and didn't have anything but converted bombers?



I don't understand the issue here. Early war Japanese escort fighters often flew with no radio at all yet they worked just fine in places like Pearl Harbor, the Philippines, Malaya, Dutch East Idies etc. Whatever radio the Fw-187 has will be at least as good as those in the A6M2.

And how many Japanese planes and pilots were lost because they had no radios?
Radios help pilots who have lost their way.
Radios help formations coordinate with each other.
Radios help formations stay in touch with base for updates or mission changes.

Some of these things maybe more important in Europe because of weather conditions than in the pacific.
Some of these things may be more important to the Germans than to the Japanese because even the Germans may have placed a higher value on their pilots lives.
A part of the Germans success in ground combat was their more extensive use of radios compared to their opponents in the early part of the war. This use of radios was worked out pre-war. Do you think they would give up this advantage in aircraft without some very serious thought or work?

Did ALL A6M2s in a formation lack radios or did formation leaders keep theirs?
Or did the A6M2s rely on the radios in the torpedo or dive bombers they were with?
 
We are talking about a long range bomber escort. Versitility is not a requirement anymore then it was with the P-51D.

Well, the P-51 started out as basically a pure fighter with great speed, low to medium altitude performance better than the P-40, limited harpoint capability to 500 pounds.. transitioned to perform low altitude Recce, dive bomber with brakes, transitioned to high altitude escort, grew hard point capability to 1000 pounds for tactical, more for ferry tanks. Redesigned to same basic lines different structure, grew to twin fuselage all weather interceptor and night fighter..

The key to the Mustang was aerodynamics and internal fuel capability from day one, then had the airframe to expand internal fuel, add capacity to carry haevier load on wings, extend engine Hp w/o changing lines and perform the air superiority, escort, recon, fighter bomber role without changing the airframe.

Help me understand what the internal fuel capability was for the 187, what capability it had to say put a 60 or 80 gallon fuse tank (volume, cg) aft of the pilot - just removing a gunner doesn't guarantee the volume is there to do more..

what was the relative drag characteristic compared to the 109?





That can be tweeked to meet the specific RLM requirement. Personally I would opt for 4 x 2cm cannon in the fuselage sides.

Again - a light airframe - does it have the space available to place the guns and ammo internally w/o compromising the cockpit and/or cg.. I suspect it does but don't know.. do you know?

That also can be tweeked to meet the RLM requirement. For one thing the space historically occupied by a second crewmember can be occupied by a second fuel tank.

Same question


I don't understand the issue here. Early war Japanese escort fighters often flew with no radio at all yet they worked just fine in places like Pearl Harbor, the Philippines, Malaya, Dutch East Idies etc. Whatever radio the Fw-187 has will be at least as good as those in the A6M2.

Long Range escort mission requires a VERY good radio. Even the Mustang which a had a very good four channel radio - required a Radio Relay flight orbiting over the Channel to pass messages from Beachy Head to the Escort - while they maintained comm between themselves and the bombers.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back