Assessing the Dornier 335’s capabilities as a fighter

[Erich]

too big, too bulky not enough time, the TA and the 262 would of been used full time in the LW arsenal and probably 2 other jets during 1946 if it was to be, this is all recorded in LW documentation towards wars end. buried at the Freiburg archiv's incase those wish to visit and really explore, but first one must find the RL numerations to proceed, don't ask me, as the Do does not interest me in the slightest but the info is there

 

[parsifal]

According to my book "Zero-A6M" by HP Willmott, Zeroes at no stage did not have radios fitted. They suffered some downgraded performance (which hads been grossly overstated in some accounts) because they did not put suppressors in their high tension leads until 1944, and because as the war progressed, build quality dropped. There were some occasions where individual pilots of land based air groups did remove radios, to reduce weight

Its a very good bet that if Zeroes werre always fitted with radios, then nearly every other type in the japanese inventory also carried radios.

 

[Burmese Bandit]

And now a question which, I believe, no one has ever asked before.

What if...

Dornier had been struck by a sudden epiphany, and thought:

"The rear engine of my two engine design was always the more efficient position, anyway. Why not put both props at the rear, on a co-axial contra rotating prop, and leave the nose completely free for vision and armament?"

As in:

The experimental Douglas XB-42 Mixmaster. (see wiki)

Even with the fat body of a bomber, the Mixmaster at 35,000 lbs and a 70 foot wingspan got over 400 mph and could fly well over 2400 miles with a warload (ferry range was an astounding 5400 miles). The power, two 1800 Allisions, is almost an exact mirror image of the two 603s in the Do 335.

Utilizing the Mixmaster concept, we could design a slimmer bodied Dornier with 440 mph and 60 foot wingspan and a central bomb bay that could take at least 6600 lbs of bombs (The Mixmaster could take 8000 lbs) or four Mk 103 long range high velocity 30mm cannon with PLEN TY of ammo. And of course at least 1500 mile range (the Mixmaster had 2500 mile range)

Roles:

Long range, high speed bomber destroyer - check.
Long range, high speed tank killer - check.
Long range high speed torpedo bomber with at least two torpedoes - check.
Long range high speed highly survivable night bomber - check.
Long endurance, high speed, heavily armed night fighter - check. Even with the ineffecient high drag German radar antennae it could probably do 390-400 mph.

Your opinions, gents?

 

[davebender]

More complex = longer research development time. And time is one luxury late 1930s Germany does not have.

Better to begin development of the Do-335 (or something similiar) during 1938 and have it in service by 1942. It will compete with and beat the Me-210 in the RLM competition for an improved zerstorer.

Powered by a pair of readily available DB601 / DB605 engines. Top speed will continue to increase as new models of the DB605 engine enter service. However the Do-335 will always have a 50+mph speed advantage over most contemporary fighter aircraft.

 

[Shortround6]

Powered by a pair of readily available DB601 / DB605 engines. Top speed will continue to increase as new models of the DB605 engine enter service. However the Do-335 will always have a 50+mph speed advantage over most contemporary fighter aircraft.

Do you want to explain this 50+ mph speed advantage?

 

[parsifal]

Yes, seems a little odd, considering the MB 157 flew in early 1941 with a top speed in excess of 440 mph

 

[Colin1]

However the Do335 will always have a 50+mph speed advantage over most contemporary fighter aircraft

The Do335
appeared to have a comfortable speed advantage over both the P-47 and the Tempest V, I use these two as they are the only two aircraft of which I have read ever making contact with the Dornier fighter; neither could close on it to gunnery range.

I'm not sure the Do335 enjoyed a 50mph+ speed advantage over the P-47M or the Tempest though.

The point here is the scarcity of operational sorties flown by the type owing to the imminent closure of hostilities, yet if the war had continued for another year then it would have encountered the P-51H, some land-based derivative of the Sea Fury, possibly the MB.5 at which point it would likely have been stuffed: its tactical advantage, its speed, has been nullified, it was a big aircraft and I can't see it trading blows with a P-51H for long in a furball.

The same year would have seen Allied jet technology come to some meaningful fruition too.

 

[Shortround6]

Part of the problem in comparing the Do-335 to allied fighters is that the comparison is between what are essentially prototypes and squadron service aircraft. American and to some extent British aircraft in late 1944 and 1945 in Europe are going to be several months behind German aircraft because of testing, getting into production and issuing in squadron numbers, Including squadron training time with new aircraft and transit times of squadrons/groups to combat areas and the Allied aircraft are going to be several months behind Germans aircraft that are produced and flown as prototypes or in small numbers.

 

[davebender]

Assumption.
Do-335 (or something similiar) enters service during January 1942 powered by 2 x 1,350 hp DB601 engines (same as Me-109F). Total hp = 2,700. Max speed = 425 to 450 mph.

Contemporary Fighter Aircraft.
~400 mph. Me-109F.
~398 mph. MiG3.
~395 mph. P-38E.
~375 mph. Spitfire Mk V.
~360 mph. P-40E.

 

[Colin1]

Assumption.
Do-335 (or something similiar) enters service during January 1942...

Umm, you sneaked that one in late

 

[parsifal]

No, hes been saying the Do-335 could be ready as early as 1937 if only they had tried.

What about the MB 157, with a top speed of over 447 missing from the list.......

 

[Vincenzo]

maybe because was only a experimental fighter and there were some reason why the lw blocked him development, as not best of other experimental fighters?

 

[davebender]

Not operationally ready. The necessary technology was patented during 1937.

As far as I can tell the Do-335 had no major development issues (unlike the Me-210 and Fw-190). If Do-335 development begins in 1938 as a competator to the Me-210 program it will enter service by early 1942. The 1938 version would be a bit smaller and lighter as it uses the smaller DB601/DB605 engines. Performance should still be excellent even with only 2,700 total hp.

 

[Colin1]

Performance should still be excellent even with only 2,700 total hp.

Only?
That's alot of horses for the configuration offered by the Do335, with a frontal area probably on a par with the P-47

 

[riacrato]

You keep bashing on the Fw 190, I don't know why. The Fw development was pretty straight forward, only real problem being overheating in the early phase, which is not so surprising considering the novelty/lack of experience with the cooling concept. The Do 335 as flown by EK 335 had a lot of smaller to larger issues, many of which easily match the cooling problem of the Fw.

 

[comiso90]

I cant think of the Do335 w/o the Shinden jumping to mind...

They had similar numbers.. from what I read, the Do 335 was faster but the Shinden had a higher ceiling..

which was a better climber?

 

[davebender]

I like the Fw-190 just fine. I don't like the BMW801 engine.

The whole point of an early Do-335 is to achieve superior performance using readily available DB601/605 engines. Dornier has experience with tandem engine aircraft going back to WWI. So why not let them enter a tandem engine heavy fighter to compete for the zerstorer role?

 

[riacrato]

Providing sufficient cooling is a task for the engine supplier as well as the aircraft company. The Fw 190 cowling was exceptionally tight-fit, much tighter than with then-typical radial aircraft.

FW and BMW continuously blamed each other for the problem. In the end, it was solved by changing the engine as well as the fuselage.


The Do 335 had cooling problems with its DB603s as well, at least in the pre-production models. The frontal engine cooling flap control was insufficient, resulting in several cases of the unusual type of cooling problems ("too cold"). The rear engine had the opposite problem: It ran too hot. In fact (iirc) this was one reason the DB603E wasn't installed in this position on the pre-production aircraft. Similar problem as the Fw 190. Now do you blame DB or Dornier?

BTW, it's true that Dornier has experience with pull-push aircraft. But (I'm not an engineer), I assume it's a significant difference if the engines are right behind each other on top of a wing, or if they are on the opposite ends of the aircraft. Also consider the power (and forces, stress) that the few hundred hp engines of the early flying boats put on compared to 1800 hp DB603s.

 

[davebender]

Dornier Do 18 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Do 18G 62 built, was an improved version, powered by two 656 kW (880 hp) Jumo 205D engines

Jumo 205D produces 880 hp.
Early model DB601 produces 1,100 hp.

That's not such a huge leap. More like the next logical step in the evolution of Dornier tandem engine aircraft.

 

[barney]

According to my book "Zero-A6M" by HP Willmott, Zeroes at no stage did not have radios fitted. They suffered some downgraded performance (which hads been grossly overstated in some accounts) because they did not put suppressors in their high tension leads until 1944, and because as the war progressed, build quality dropped. There were some occasions where individual pilots of land based air groups did remove radios, to reduce weight

Its a very good bet that if Zeroes werre always fitted with radios, then nearly every other type in the japanese inventory also carried radios.

Saburō Sakai, in his book, in listing his and his air goup's activities in the New Guinea campaign, and I have his book floating around here somewhere, writes that they used neither radios nor parachutes. They disdained anything that would reduce the performance of their aircraft.