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This is a rehash of previous discussions but since we are talking about proposed aircraft, my feelings are that Germany should have spent it development efforts on the clearly superior Me-262 and maybe other jets instead of aircraft like the Ta-152, and especially the Do-335, that were not going to provide significant advantages over the latest Allied aircraft such as the P-51H, P-51M, F4U-4, and the latest Spitfire marks.
Here's a comparison of the Do-335A1/5 to the XP-72, an allied aircraft whose very successful flight test program was cancelled because the Allies were moving on in technology. If we assume that the war had continued and jets were not becoming operational, and these two aircraft, whose development was parallel, met in the skies over Europe in the summer of '45, this is how they might match up.
Empty Weight-lbs
P-72 11476
Do 16280
Loaded Weight-lbs
P-72 14433
Do 21142
Length-ft
P-72 36.6
Dop 45.6
Wingspan-ft
P-72 40.9
Do 45.3
Wing Area- ft^2
P-72 300
Do 414.4
Wing Loading- lb/ ft^2
P-72 48.1
Do 51
Power–Hp(PS)
P-72 3450
Do 4800
P/W Loaded- hp/lb
P-72 .24
Do .23
Max Airspeed-mph
P-72 480 (tested, without turbo) to 490+ (est.)
Do 474
Climb Rate-ft/min
P-72 5280
Do 4600
Ceiling-ft
P-72 42,000
Do 38,000
I think it is apparent that the Do-335 would be at a disadvantage as it is exceeded my most all performance criteria.
If Mustangs and Tempests could successfully chase down a fighter that was 100mph faster (Me 262) why does anyone think that the Do335 would be a formidable threat to USAAF bomber fleets in 1945 - Given the coverage both for escort and sweeps?
Boom and Zoom has questionable sufficient advantage in performance to remain quasi invulnerable. There was always a high escort ~ 5000 feet above the bomners for at least one squadron over just about every wing at that stage of the war. 335 could definitely dive past to make initial attack but not sure of staying away from escorts even if after the initial attack.
It certainly would/should have been more effective than Fw 190 and me 109 but at what cost to the Me 262 deliveries?
Davparlr,
Lets remember that this is the performance of the Do-335A-0 in 1944,
by mid 45 it was to powered by two even more powerful high altitude DB603 engines providing 2,700 hp each, plus a GM-1 system which would've increased the ceiling by atleast 10,000 ft.
So by mid 45 when the P-72 would've entered service in europe the Do-335 would be hitting speeds of 500 mph and climb at 5,500 ft/min. So the Do-335 P-72 would've been very close.
I'm confused. I used the data you presented on the first submittal that appeared was claimed for the A-1 and A-5, not the A-0. Remember the P-72 data is from early to mid 44 also.
I think my overall point is that the Do-335 was not a war winner in 1945 and German efforts should have emphasized the jets, in which they had a good lead. By fall of 1944, as Goering would say, the jig was up. No technology would save Germany. The advanced planes needed to be in use, in quantity, by the end of '43, early '44.
Furthermore Lerche says the a/c was very stable in flight, so again not sure where red admiral gets his info from, but the A-0 atleast didn't feature any of the weaknesses he claims.
In my opinion the Fw-187 was superior to the Me-110 in every way. The smaller Fw-187 is probably less expensive as well. So why would the Me-110 win?
An early model tandem engine Dornier fighter is the wild card. How does a Do-334 1/2 compare with the Fw-187? Remember they have identical engines. The Dornier fighter is lighter then the historical Do-335 (no weapons bay, no 2nd crew member, lighter engine mounts for the smaller engines etc.). Can Dornier even put together a practical fighter at this early date? They do have several decades experience with tandem engine seaplanes, most of which had excellent reputations.
In my opinion the Fw-187 was superior to the Me-110 in every way. The smaller Fw-187 is probably less expensive as well. So why would the Me-110 win?
The discussions about the Fw 187 have always been interesting to me simply because it offered great promise as a bomber destroyer and a better long range escort fighter for medium to medium high altitude envelopes. It might have been enough to turn the tide against the RAF during the BoB.
Having said this, the specific airframe a.) offered little growth capability for gross weight (i.e more internal weapons, extra fuel, intercooler to get much better high altitude performance, and b.) was limited in versatility vs the Me 110... so the competition wasn't the Me 110 - it was the 109 and the Fw 190 and it required two engines not one.
Neither did the Me-109. Yet it served admirabily for 10 years.offered little growth capability for gross weight
We are talking about a long range bomber escort. Versitility is not a requirement anymore then it was with the P-51D.was limited in versatility vs the Me 110
That can be tweeked to meet the specific RLM requirement. Personally I would opt for 4 x 2cm cannon in the fuselage sides.What was the actual armament of the FW 187
That also can be tweeked to meet the RLM requirement. For one thing the space historically occupied by a second crewmember can be occupied by a second fuel tank.what was the range of the FW 187?
Not part of the 1937 RLM requirement. In fact nobody had night fighters during 1937.It would have made a lousier night fighter
I don't understand the issue here. Early war Japanese escort fighters often flew with no radio at all yet they worked just fine in places like Pearl Harbor, the Philippines, Malaya, Dutch East Idies etc. Whatever radio the Fw-187 has will be at least as good as those in the A6M2.Figure out if a the radio needs a separate operator or not
Neither did the Me-109. Yet it served admirabily for 10 years.
We don't seem to have the range yet of the FW 187 so we don't know if it would have made a long range escort fighter.We are talking about a long range bomber escort. Versitility is not a requirement anymore then it was with the P-51D.
That can be tweeked to meet the specific RLM requirement. Personally I would opt for 4 x 2cm cannon in the fuselage sides.
That also can be tweeked to meet the RLM requirement. For one thing the space historically occupied by a second crewmember can be occupied by a second fuel tank.
Not part of the 1937 RLM requirement. In fact nobody had night fighters during 1937.
I don't understand the issue here. Early war Japanese escort fighters often flew with no radio at all yet they worked just fine in places like Pearl Harbor, the Philippines, Malaya, Dutch East Idies etc. Whatever radio the Fw-187 has will be at least as good as those in the A6M2.
We are talking about a long range bomber escort. Versitility is not a requirement anymore then it was with the P-51D.
Well, the P-51 started out as basically a pure fighter with great speed, low to medium altitude performance better than the P-40, limited harpoint capability to 500 pounds.. transitioned to perform low altitude Recce, dive bomber with brakes, transitioned to high altitude escort, grew hard point capability to 1000 pounds for tactical, more for ferry tanks. Redesigned to same basic lines different structure, grew to twin fuselage all weather interceptor and night fighter..
The key to the Mustang was aerodynamics and internal fuel capability from day one, then had the airframe to expand internal fuel, add capacity to carry haevier load on wings, extend engine Hp w/o changing lines and perform the air superiority, escort, recon, fighter bomber role without changing the airframe.
Help me understand what the internal fuel capability was for the 187, what capability it had to say put a 60 or 80 gallon fuse tank (volume, cg) aft of the pilot - just removing a gunner doesn't guarantee the volume is there to do more..
what was the relative drag characteristic compared to the 109?
That can be tweeked to meet the specific RLM requirement. Personally I would opt for 4 x 2cm cannon in the fuselage sides.
Again - a light airframe - does it have the space available to place the guns and ammo internally w/o compromising the cockpit and/or cg.. I suspect it does but don't know.. do you know?
That also can be tweeked to meet the RLM requirement. For one thing the space historically occupied by a second crewmember can be occupied by a second fuel tank.
Same question
I don't understand the issue here. Early war Japanese escort fighters often flew with no radio at all yet they worked just fine in places like Pearl Harbor, the Philippines, Malaya, Dutch East Idies etc. Whatever radio the Fw-187 has will be at least as good as those in the A6M2.