Admiral Beez
Major
What does the USSR and MiG do if the British government refuses to release the Rolls-Royce Nene drawings AND prevents spies from stealing them? Klimov VK-1 - Wikipedia
Attlee tells Stalin to get stuffed, no Rolls-Royce Nene for you!
- Thread starter Admiral Beez
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Thumpalumpacus
Major
Roll up their sleeves and get to work? They've got some pretty smart guys in the sharashkas.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Didn't the Russians acquire some wunderwaffe tech and some (slow moving) scientists?
Glider
Captain
Russia did develop a couple of aircraft such as the Mig 9 and I do not doubt that with the knowledge they had and the German scientists the captured they would have developed some decent engines. That said they would have been further behind the curve and the air war in Korea would have been a lot different.
Who knows maybe even the Meteor and Vampire would have stood a chance!!
Who knows maybe even the Meteor and Vampire would have stood a chance!!
yulzari
Tech Sergeant
The British government had nothing to do with the sale. Not being on the secret list, Rolls Royce were free to sell their engines anywhere they wanted to. What the government did like was the payment in dollars which aided civilian ration imports of which there was a serious shortfall.
- Thread starter
- #6
Admiral Beez
Major
Then now they are. Now what?
special ed
2nd Lieutenant
- 5,669
- May 13, 2018
The twin engine MiG-9 flew during early development with Jumo 004 engines. The Russian manufactured 004 was less powerful and less reliable than captured Jumos. Production used Soviet built versions of Jumo 004.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
yulzari
Tech Sergeant
The Soviets were already trying to get information through open sources and espionage so they still might have made a copy of sorts.
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- #10
Admiral Beez
Major
Most definitely, but not having the techincal drawings, specs and actual engine examples from Rolls Royce should slow the Russian counterfeiters a bit.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
I think the Soviets would have pushed on with refining the RD-20 (BMW 003) and maybe we would have seen the RD-9 come on line sooner. In the middle of it all efforts "would have" been made to still acquire western technology.
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- #13
Admiral Beez
Major
Post-1945 BMW is western tech.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Well it's captured western tech!
The British Govt had plenty to do with the sale.
1. Clearance had to be obtained for the engines and technology to be on an "open list" before RR could even begin to consider selling abroad. That approval came from the Air Ministry, a branch of Govt. Then
2. Each foreign sale required an Export Licence granted by the Board of Trade, another Govt Dept. Such licences had been granted to the likes of France even though there were strong Communist elements in the politics of that country at the time.
The Soviets were not only after engines. They also wanted jet aircraft and jet engine manufacturing rights.
Ultimately the decision on granting the Export Licences to the Soviets went all the way up to the Prime Ministers desk such was the controversy it was generating within Govt circles. He finally signed off on the Licences in Sept 1946 for 10 Nene and 10 Derwent V engines which were delivered from March 1947. A second batch then followed while a third was cancelled. Most importantly no Export Licence was issued in relation to manufacturing rights. Nor were licences granted for Meteors or Vampires.
One problem in all of this was that much information about the Nene was already in the public domain, probably as a result of step 1. The Soviets were able to use that as the basis of the initial design of the VK-1.
At the time the Soviets, along with every other nation, were being courted by the British aircraft industry generally, to sell product and generate valuable foreign currency, especially dollars. Exports took priority over the home market in a country where we were still suffering rationing and the coffers were basically empty. And this was just the very start of the Cold War. So Soviet delegations openly toured British factories and engaged in espionage and sometimes outright theft.
Finally AIUI the sale was in Soviet gold not dollars. But still better than roubles or even £.
The politics of these sales was still proving controversial in 1953 judging by the exchanges in Hansard openly available on the Internet. The question is, just how much did the Soviets benefit? Some suggest it was more in the form of the metal alloys used in the engines rather than from the engines themselves. Interesting article here
“WHAT FOOLS WOULD SELL US THEIR SECRETS?”
Stalin’s supposed remark about Britain’s decision to provide...
- Thread starter
- #16
Admiral Beez
Major
I would hope that had Churchill won in 1945 that Britain would have taken a different path.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
Now that's one hell of a "what-if" thread, albeit outside the scope of this forum, what with its political ramifications.
Well Atlee's decision was 6 months after Churchill made his famous "Iron Curtain" speech at Fulton Missouri.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
I think Churchill would have been more reticent.
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- #20
Admiral Beez
Major
And hopefully more forceful in getting the RAF and FAA's jet fighters into earlier service.
The Hunter would have done nicely in Korea, for example. The Swift, if well made, maybe.
