Aviation myths that will not die

Macchi · Jan 8, 2014

I didn't read all 12 pages, so if I'm repeating something then ignore me.

fastmongrel said:
My current No 1 aviation myth that has reared its ugly head on a facebook page I share is

The Allison V1710 didnt have a supercharger when fitted in the P39 and P40 and if only the US govenmint[sic] had let the manufacturers fit a Turbinecharger[sic] then they would have been the greatest aircraft of WWII. When I tried to point out the error in the post I got told I didnt know what I was talking about and anyway the original writer is a well known aviation expert. If he cant even use spellcheck then hes not much of an expert

The Mustang was a disappointment until a Merlin was dropped into it. If a Merlin or equal was ever put into a P40 I'd love to hear how it performed. No matter how good an airframe is, a lesser engine choice can spoil the potential. I don't think the P39 and P40 "myths" are really myths... just opinions over what might have been possible.

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
3. The Germans called the P-38 the Fork Tailed Devil.

In the late 1980s I lived in Munich for awhile. A German I knew there had a father who was a soldier in WWII. He'd told me that his father and such called the P38 "mann-jäger" (man hunter). The name came because some P38s were known to strafe even solo soldiers if they were found in the open. Maybe with the nose guns the P38 pilots didn't have to deal with convergence to get a hit on such a small target. Maybe some P38 pilots were just bored and didn't like coming home with unused belts.

GregP · Jan 8, 2014

The Allison V-1710 HAS a supercharger integral to the accessory case. ALL of them do. It can't run without one. In the early 1940's a turbocharger was called a turbo-supercharger and that is perhaps the source of the confusion.

The supercharger was a single stage unit, single speed unit and Allison had several designs for multi-speed and multi-stage units with both mechanical and hydraulic clutches, but the US government declined to fund them and stuck with their original spec for the high-altitude boost system to be a turbo-supercharger. They got what they ordered.

If they had let Allison improve the powerplant, maybe it would have been different, but the high altitude boost system was specified through the end of the war to be the turbocharger and development ceased after the war due to the advent of jet engines. Production ceased rapidly after the war.

Seems ludicrous today, but the boost system was SPECIFIED and everything else developed from that spec. Ever try to get a small change through congress? Almost can't be done. Once the issues were ironed out (intake manifold, fuel, and training) the Allison was pretty good, even compared with a Merlin. Unfortunately the government intruded into engine development and the results were predictable. Today, running wiothout the turbocharger, the Allison is a robust and reliable engine. In WWII it was fine at high altitude if equipped with the turbo after about 1943, but was a lower altitude engine of not so equipped.

The P-40 DID get a Merlin. It was the P-40F and P-40L. They had a single-stage supercharger and their altitude performance improved to about 20,000 feet. If they had been equipped with a 2-stage engine, things might have been different. They weren't and it wasn't.

tomo pauk · Jan 8, 2014

Macchi said:
...
The Mustang was a disappointment until a Merlin was dropped into it. If a Merlin or equal was ever put into a P40 I'd love to hear how it performed. No matter how good an airframe is, a lesser engine choice can spoil the potential. I don't think the P39 and P40 "myths" are really myths... just opinions over what might have been possible.
....

While the Merlin Mustang was a world beater when introduced, could you please point to the Allison Mustang being called as 'disappointment' by it's users - don't remember that I've read something like that before.

nuuumannn · Jan 8, 2014

Quite right, Tomo.

The Mustang was a disappointment until a Merlin was dropped into it.

Now there's an aviation myth that will not die. Like wot's been said in other threads on the Mustang, over 600 Allison engined Mustang I, IA and IIs were supplied to the RAF to equip 22 different squadrons, a number of which were still equipped with them on VE Day. Can't have been all that bad.

fastmongrel · Jan 8, 2014

The RAF army co operation squadrons loved the Allison engined Mustangs as they were faster and smoother than a Merlin Mustang below 10,000 feet. They kept them running till the spares ran out when there must have been airfields full of spare factory fresh planes aeroplanes available.

Die die die Allison myth die damn you its like trying to kill a cockroach when you have finally beaten it to death you turn round and find another hundred have turned up

pbehn · Jan 8, 2014

nuuumannn said:
Quite right, Tomo.

Now there's an aviation myth that will not die. Like wot's been said in other threads on the Mustang, over 600 Allison engined Mustang I, IA and IIs were supplied to the RAF to equip 22 different squadrons, a number of which were still equipped with them on VE Day. Can't have been all that bad.

The allison engined mustangs wernt pretty and although a good aircraft at what they did they were never going to "change the game" in the way the merlin engined variant did. You cant sweep the LW from the skies by doing tactical recconaissance. As a kid I asked my mother to buy me a model of a Mustang and was shocked when she came back with a Mk 1 .....what an ugly mutha. Maybe dissappointment is too strong a word, they just wernt as spectacularly successful as the later marques ( and were fugly)

nuuumannn · Jan 8, 2014

The Allison engined Mustangs werent pretty and although a good aircraft at what they did they were never going to "change the game" in the way the Merlin engined variant did.

Yeah, so what's your point? Merlin Mustangs were designed because of the Allison's poor altitude characteristics; when the NA-73X was designed it was intended on being fitted with the Allison to a British requirement; its designers could not have foreseen the impact the type was to have when powered by a different engine when they designed it. And before you think it, the Mustang was not designed as a long range bomber escort; it was designed to a request for fighters, specifically P-40s to be manufactured by North American Aviation for the British.

In the tac recon Mustang I in service in early 1942 the RAF had an aircraft that could tackle the Fw 190 and Bf 109F on even terms, possessing performance that could match and better the two at low altitude. it was superior to the Spitfire V - the frontline RAF fighter at the time in almost every respect except altitude and turning circle. At the time of its debut it was the arguably most advanced and the best performing fighter at low to medium altitude in service in Europe.

pbehn · Jan 8, 2014

nuuumannn said:
Yeah, so what's your point? And before you think it,

In the tac recon Mustang I in service in early 1942 the RAF had an aircraft that could tackle the Fw 190 and Bf 109F

Pardon me for living. I think I made my point. It would make no difference how good a plane was at tac recon, it would never become a legend, the LW simply didnt have to take it on at low level and it couldnt confront the LW at high level. If the Germans had continued with daylight raids the Mustang Mk1 would be close to useless and if the USA had stopped daylight raids or the bomber formations had been able to defend themselves (as they expected they could) the Mustang would be remembered as a very good plane but not a game changer. Have a nice day I will have a beer.

GrauGeist · Jan 8, 2014

And the P-51's cousin, the A-36 proved to be a formidable ground attack aircraft...nothing wrong with the Allison powered P-51 at all.
Sometimes asthetics don't prove an aircraft's worth, yes the P-51D was an attractive aircraft, but the so-called "ugly" versions certainly got the job done.

I can't think of very many prize-fighters that step out of the ring and go model fashions

Balljoint · Jan 8, 2014

nuuumannn said:
Yeah, so what's your point? Merlin Mustangs were designed because of the Allison's poor altitude characteristics; when the NA-73X was designed it was intended on being fitted with the Allison to a British requirement; its designers could not have foreseen the impact the type was to have when powered by a different engine when they designed it. And before you think it, the Mustang was not designed as a long range bomber escort; it was designed to a request for fighters, specifically P-40s to be manufactured by North American Aviation for the British.

In the tac recon Mustang I in service in early 1942 the RAF had an aircraft that could tackle the Fw 190 and Bf 109F on even terms, possessing performance that could match and better the two at low altitude. it was superior to the Spitfire V - the frontline RAF fighter at the time in almost every respect except altitude and turning circle. At the time of its debut it was the arguably most advanced and the best performing fighter at low to medium altitude in service in Europe.

Yeah, but it would have likely gone out of production but for the A-36. Or maybe it would find a mission against the JIA Oscars in China. Like the Soviets, the China air combat was low altitude from what I've rea.

Shortround6 · Jan 8, 2014

I think there is a lot of difference between "it would never become a legend" and "The Mustang was a disappointment until a Merlin was dropped into it."

Is every airplane that didn't become a "legend" a disappointment?

BTW;
April 16th 1942 is the contract date for 500 A-36 dive bombers.
June 23rd 1942 is the contract date for 1200 P-51A fighters. In Dec 1942 this contract is cut to 310 aircraft and the balance are to be completed as P-51Bs. So A.) The A-36s were NOT the last Allison powered Mustangs and B.) It appears that the US had every intention of continuing production of Allison powered version/s even if the Merlin version never came along or didn't work.

To stop Mustang production while continuing to build P-40s using the same engines would be rather dumb even by the worst of US standards.

bobbysocks · Jan 8, 2014

model299 said:
My dad is a former marine Korean war veteran of the Chosin reservior battle......As a side note, we moved him up to my hometown from KC, Mo. My brother and I were figuring out his medical options, and I brought up the fact that the Twin Cities VA hospital has a great reputation. He wanted NOTHING to do with it. In fact, any mention of the phrase "Veterans Administration" will get you a snarling pissed look and a salty, sharp rebuke. (Something about having relations with themselves, if you catch my drift.) and then that's it. We have no idea what happened and we quit trying to find out. He simply will not talk about it under ANY circumstances.

now my father loved the VA. he just knew he would be spending the whole day there as they arent in a huge rush. but because of them he was diagnosed with several life threatening issues ( like colon cancer ) that might have gone undetected at a GP Dr's. office. he told my father-in-law (korean war vet ) about it and he too loves it and recommends it to anyone he meets.

Alte Hase · Jan 8, 2014

Macchi said:
In the late 1980s I lived in Munich for awhile. A German I knew there had a father who was a soldier in WWII. He'd told me that his father and such called the P38 "mann-jäger" (man hunter). The name came because some P38s were known to strafe even solo soldiers if they were found in the open. Maybe with the nose guns the P38 pilots didn't have to deal with convergence to get a hit on such a small target. Maybe some P38 pilots were just bored and didn't like coming home with unused belts.

Towards the end of the war (March 1945 on), the USAAF conducted mostly strafing attacks on ground targets-air to air combat was becoming much scarcer by the day owing to the Germans' dire shortages of fuel- anything was a target...horses and carts (there's footage of P-47s strafing these somewhere I recall),civillians on foot, private vehicles, as well as troops naturally. A colleague I used to work with was married to a German woman whose mother had been a Child living in the Munich area in 1945- she recalls skating on a frozen lake (must have been in the winter of 1944-45) and an allied aircraft strafing them...they hid behind a tree on an island in the lake and although the tree was hit, none of the children were.According to her, apparently the bullets are still stuck in the tree, which is still there.

bobbysocks · Jan 8, 2014

anything that moved ( trucks, boats, trains, etc) was generally a target....and i dont doubt there were some instances of abuse...but children skating and the like were never condoned targets. you will get the same kinds of stories from both sides..allies and axis...but i dont think that was the norm. i know a story where a FG was strafing an airdrome. at the end of it was an old woman walking carrying groceries. she witnessed the whole 15 to 20 minutes of the attack as she walked by....no one in the group took a pot shot at her...and they all saw her. she walked away unharmed...probably deaf from all the noise but otherwise intact. for the most part the guys sitting in those cockpits ( spitfires, mustangs, 109s, 190s ) were average joes who had families and moral and ethical standards...they were doing their job and not black hearted villians.

tyrodtom · Jan 8, 2014

I wonder how many private motor vehicles there would be on German roads in late WW2 ?
And how anyone flying at even 500 or whatever ft. at a couple hundred mph could tell a civilian from a military person or vehicle.
.
I'm sure they did straff everything that moved
War ain't nice.

GrauGeist · Jan 8, 2014

I would think that few civilian vehicles at the tail end of the war remained in civilian possesion...most have been confiscated or commandeered by military or local "authorities" and besides, anything on the road had a relatively short life, so a civilian driving along the road was really pushing their luck!

model299 · Jan 8, 2014

I was watching some episode on the History Channel that was dealing with the Allies strafing missions new war's end. One of the gun camera sequences showed a horse drawn cart being strafed. My son asked why the pilot did that, and I told him "Think about it, if I had to move some munitions, or maybe fuel, I'd try putting it on the cart, and covering it with hay, and hope the allied pilots will leave me alone.

nuuumannn · Jan 8, 2014

Is every airplane that didn't become a "legend" a disappointment?

Thank you, SR. Gee, he's got high standards!

Yeah, but it would have likely gone out of production but for the A-36.

Umm, the Mustang was originally designed for the British, not the Americans. The reason why the Merlin was put in was to improve its altitude performance, again for the British, not the Americans. The fact that it had great range and potential as a long range bomber escort was seen as a consequence of fitting the Merlin, not the reason behind it. I'm pretty certain Mustang production would have continued throughout the war even if the USA decided it didn't need it - and continue P-40 production!

Macchi · Jan 9, 2014

tomo pauk said:
While the Merlin Mustang was a world beater when introduced, could you please point to the Allison Mustang being called as 'disappointment' by it's users - don't remember that I've read something like that before.

P-51 Mustang Variants

"On April 30, 1942 Rolls Royce senior test pilot Ron Harker was invited to fly the Mustang I. He was delighted with the aircraft's handling but felt its performance was held back by its engine. He stated that the Mustang would be a natural for the Merlin 61 series."

"The first flight by Bob Chilton was on November 30, 1942. NAA was very pleased with the results (might have been some jumping up and down with excitment). The new Mustang reached 441 mph at 29,000 plus feet. At this altitude, the XP-51B would simply run away from an Allison Mustang that was nearly 100 mph slower."

'Disappointment' was my word, I think perhaps my interpretation considering the excellence of the airframe. A 100 mph difference at high altitude makes second place look like 10th place. Please note it wasn't a reference to the pilots who flew Allison Mustangs , I was talking about the development period. The Allison was nice, but without the Merlin the Mustang ceases to be an historical all-star. If the powerplant switch hadn't happened, the lost (and never known) potential would have been beyond disappointing and entered 'depressing' territory.

GregP said:
The P-40 DID get a Merlin. It was the P-40F and P-40L. They had a single-stage supercharger and their altitude performance improved to about 20,000 feet. If they had been equipped with a 2-stage engine, things might have been different. They weren't and it wasn't.

Sorry, I had the two stage supercharged Merlin in mind when I said that. I'd like to know how it would have performed with an XX or later. I'd slap a kitten to know how it would have performed with a RR Griffon 101 in it.

pbehn · Jan 9, 2014

Is every airplane that didn't become a "legend" a disappointment?

nuuumannn said:
Thank you, SR. Gee, he's got high standards!

I didnt say it was a disappointment, someone else did. Running two statements by two people together to create a new argument is a novel debating method. Now Im off.

Good day Sir.

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