vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
Aviation myths that will not die
- Thread starter fastmongrel
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Edgar Brooks
Senior Airman
An unfortunate over-simplification, since the vast majority of Mosquito major components were made here, in High Wycombe furniture factories, and were assembled using the identical glue that was used to assemble wooden chairs, etc. The glue was casein cement, a milk-based product, which had a finite pot-life, and, in the tropics, became a breeding-ground for mould spores, also attracting termites and similar insects. A chemical expert, Andrew Oliver, came up with the new urea-formaldehyde formula, which solved the problem. (To my everlasting annoyance, I worked with Mr. Oliver, for about 5 years, and never learnt of his involvement with the aircraft.)
muscogeemike
Senior Airman
In 1989 I was in a frame shop in El Paso TX. An older gentleman was picking up a nice framed painting of Colin Kelly in his B-17 just prior to him diving into a Japanese "aircraft carrier" and sinking it.
The gentleman got very angry when I questioned this interpretation of the event. I rarely rely on just the vet's memories of past war events.
Another myth: the influence of Italian theorist Giulio Douhet on Bomber Doctrine, According to Eric M Bergerud (FIRE IN THE SKY) he was little read by military airmen, even in his own country.
muscogeemike
Senior Airman
GrauGeist and others on this thread,
I have been going over some of my old post and realized I left this hanging.
I stand corrected, the Army Air Corps remained as an element of the Army Air force until 1947.
Another of my "myths" shattered, and Nuuumannn I did ride in a P-38 as a child in the early 1950's.
My best friends father had flown them during the war and, along with another firefighter, bought one surplus and installed a seat behind the pilot. This was in S. CA where Lockheed is located.
My elementary school was near a Lockheed test facility and I remember seeing many of their aircraft flying over our school.
I have been going over some of my old post and realized I left this hanging.
I stand corrected, the Army Air Corps remained as an element of the Army Air force until 1947.
Another of my "myths" shattered, and Nuuumannn I did ride in a P-38 as a child in the early 1950's.
My best friends father had flown them during the war and, along with another firefighter, bought one surplus and installed a seat behind the pilot. This was in S. CA where Lockheed is located.
My elementary school was near a Lockheed test facility and I remember seeing many of their aircraft flying over our school.
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
I envy You.
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
It's that ancient myth that gets me going.
Recent discoveries in the archives of the Greek Civil Aviation Authority have revealed documented reports, which clearly state that the cause of the fatal accident involving a 'home built' piloted by one I. Carus, was due to catastrophic structural failure during an unauthorised flight of a previously un-tested and un- licenced craft, which was almost certainly due to the use of bonding materials not suitable for the conditions of flight, and not, at that time, approved by the GCAA.
The myth of flying too near to the sun does not stand up, as subsequent investigation has revealed that the type did not have the power or climb ability to exceed an altitude of approximately 5,000 feet.
Recent discoveries in the archives of the Greek Civil Aviation Authority have revealed documented reports, which clearly state that the cause of the fatal accident involving a 'home built' piloted by one I. Carus, was due to catastrophic structural failure during an unauthorised flight of a previously un-tested and un- licenced craft, which was almost certainly due to the use of bonding materials not suitable for the conditions of flight, and not, at that time, approved by the GCAA.
The myth of flying too near to the sun does not stand up, as subsequent investigation has revealed that the type did not have the power or climb ability to exceed an altitude of approximately 5,000 feet.
N4521U
Colonel
I concur......................................................
Sounds like a bureaucrate covering up the facts
The design had undergone flight tests by the manurfacturers one d aedalus ,mr i carus had indeed done all of his flight training in the aircraft in question and the first aircraft succsesfully completed an international flight on the day of the accident in the same weather . It would seem to me the accident was a direct result of the pilot exceeding the design limits as set out by d aeduls aicraft company manuals . pilot error pure and simple
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
could have been inferior parts used in the construction and the findings of "flew too close to the sun" is simply a smoke-screen to hide that fact.
Both of those were probably built using materials from the lowest bidder...
Both of those were probably built using materials from the lowest bidder...
N4521U
Colonel
Yep, probably recycled glue. Re-boxed!
Lets see now..."Sir Frank Whittle invented the Jet engine".... is that true or false? And did the Tuskogee airmen actually lose bombers under their escort??? And was "Watsons whizzers", equipped with the Me 262, the first unofficial U.S jet fighter squadron? ( the P80 being grounded at the time)..and talking of Me 262's, was the swept wing really used to balance the jet turbines, and not an aerodynamic design?
Yes it was, and we're talking the heavier than expected BMW P.3304 turbojets which were still the proposed power plant as the wing evolved.
It started life like this.
Cheers
Steve
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Watson's Whizzers was a special unit of pilots, engineers and support personnel who were assigned with the mission to capture German technology.
They weren't "assigned" warplanes, they were seizing warplanes and transporting them back to Cherbourg to be shipped back to the U.S.
They also used Luftwaffe test pilots and ground crew that helped with getting the Me262s, Me163s and many other types back safely.
They weren't "assigned" warplanes, they were seizing warplanes and transporting them back to Cherbourg to be shipped back to the U.S.
They also used Luftwaffe test pilots and ground crew that helped with getting the Me262s, Me163s and many other types back safely.
It's between him and a certain German if you substitute 'turbojet' for 'jet'
How about the Wright brothers making the first powered flight in a heavier than air contraption ? There are some other candidates.....I know we have a few Kiwis here !
Cheers
Steve
The Wright Brothers are not known for "heavier than air", but "heavier than air powered" flight.
There are plenty of others from all over the world who flew heavier than air gliders before the powered flight. That has never been disputed.
Edit: I just realized that is what you said...
There are plenty of others from all over the world who flew heavier than air gliders before the powered flight. That has never been disputed.
Edit: I just realized that is what you said...
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davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
It's between him and a certain German if you substitute 'turbojet' for 'jet'
How about the Wright brothers making the first powered flight in a heavier than air contraption ? There are some other candidates.....I know we have a few Kiwis here !
Cheers
Steve
Flying a heavier than air aircraft, even powered, in and of itself was not rocket science and probably several did indeed fly. However, the Wright bros without a doubt flew the first engineered aircraft with full control, and documented it. They were also, without a doubt, world leaders, probably the only ones, that really understood aerodynamics. All you have to do to see if competitors understood aerodynamics is to look at the propeller they used. The Wright Bros are given credit with inventing the modern propeller. When a duplicate propeller was built recently it was found to have an efficiency of 80%. Modern propellers are in the neighborhood of 85%, very impressive (amazing?). The Wright bros also initiated the very design process that is used today in modern aircraft development, analyze, test, evaluate, analyze, test, evaluate, etc. Being responsible for the air data system during the Tacit Blue development (look it up), I performed some wind tunnel analysis for locating air data sensors. When I looked at the Wright test papers associated with their wind tunnel test, they were very similar to those of our test of the Tacit Blue. I was struck by the fact that these men were ingenious in their knowledge of aerodynamics and aircraft engineering. Here are a couple of interesting sites, one discussing propellers and one showing Wright wind tunnel data. These men were not just bicycle mechanics but were most likely the most knowledgeable and capable aerodynamics engineers in the world at the time.
A History of Aerodynamics: And Its Impact on Flying Machines - John David Anderson - Google Books
https://www.google.com/search?q=wri...ht.nasa.gov%2Fairplane%2Fresults.html;620;466
wuzak
Captain
Is it true that no replica of the Wright Flyer have been able to fly?
davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
Which is all fine, but it is not necessarily so that they made the first powered, heavier than air, flight. If someone with a less firm grasp of aerodynamics and with an inefficient propeller flew......they flew
Cheers
Steve
There are multitudes of claims and so far no proof. There is no doubt the Wright flyer was the first true airplane and all the aircraft flying today can trace their lineage as an integrated vehicle to the Wright flyer, and no other. In addition, they had something no other pretender to the throne had, documentation.
From Wikipedia,
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davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
Wikipedia states that there were several successful test flights of a Wright Flyer replica built for the centennial anniversary of the first flight. This was built as an exact copy of the original Flyer. However, the aircraft is extremely difficult to fly which attest to the Wright brothers ability as pilots. They did, however, have years of practice in their glider, something modern pilots were not able to get. While they were experts in basic aerodynamics, they spent little time on more in-depth aero such as stability. The Model A, a two-seater, became the basis for the Military Flyer, the first military aircraft. Their later model B incorporated a more modern and more stable rear mounted elevator, and advancement over the original canard type elevator.
Another interesting point about the Wright brothers is that they designed and built (by their mechanic) their own engine for the Flyer, which I also found quite amazing.
