B-17 in the movie Thunderball

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This is probably of interest only to me but when I was a WOC (Warrant Officer Candidate) in the Army in 1968 (rotary wing training at Fort Wolters) I heard a story from one of the other candidates. He was older than the rest of us and had already done a tour as a Special Forces SGT in Vietnam. He had some interesting war stories and was certainly my platoon (or flight?) as it was called who looked up to him and elected him as our platoon leader as much as possible (it had to rotate). One story he told was about a Seal named Fox who was picked up by a Skyhook in a training exercise but was killed when the rope/cable broke because someone drop the holding lever (?) as Fox was coming in the back door of the a/c (a C-119?). He said Fox waved goodbye and went into a sky diver's spread but was killed when he hit the water. I always wondered if the story was BS but the guy (last name of Carroll) was believable. Years later, I was reading Brave Men, Dark Waters and ran across the story of Fox being killed. It happened at Little River VA. and Fox is listed on the Seal Role of Honor. Of course, I don't know if Carroll was really there but he told a good story. I have searched the Virtual Wall and I think Carroll was killed flying a Cobra in a night rocket attack when he struck a Palm tree. I didn't finish flight school but am in the graduating class photo which another WOC (who retired as as CW4) sent me a number of years ago. He had labeled all of the names on the backside of the photo (JPEG). If anyone knows where I can find the accident report for this incident with Fox then I would like to see a copy. Of all the folks I knew in flight school, I never thought that Carroll would be the one who didn't make it. According to the reports I have read (if I have the right Carroll), he was the a/c Commander even though he was a Warrant flying with an Officer and had only be In Country for 6-months months. One of the reasons, I don't know if it was the same man is because he would never let us use his first name. If anyone knows anything about either the Fox accident or anything about Wesley Womble Carroll III who was the pilot of the Cobra involved in the accident in 1970 I would most appreciate it. For a first tour in Vietnam, to be assigned to Cobras, you had to be a the top of the class. Most guys expected slicks or worse.
 
I cannot remember the name of the book (printed in the 50's) but it was about an American missionary (New Guinea?) pilot who could toss a long rope outta a Piper Cub and by spiraling the aircraft (I don't understand the physics) the end of the rope would lower vertically. People on the ground in the middle of the jungle could then attach packages and the pilot flies off pulling the rope and package into the cockpit.

?
 
This aircraft is 44-83785, a Douglas built B-17G-95DL, initially used as a CB-17G transport from July 1945 when it was sent to the Pacific Theater from WCW San Francisco. Converted to VB-17G executive transport along the way, designation for which was formalized on her record card July 1951 at Komaki AFB, Nagoya. Continued in this role until overhauled at Tachikawa June-October, 1956 and transferred to non-AF entity (CIA front company) after 22 October 1956. Aircraft was subject of a Stars and Stripes article lamenting loss of this aircraft to those she had safely transported throughout the Far East over many years. Unlike other Far East B-17s entering the shadow world, she was not lost over mainland China or in other nefarious expeditions. This is the only B-17 with a CIA past known to have survived, and a painting of her retrieving an operative from the abandoned Soviet ice station graces the lobby of CIA Headquarters and is also featured on the CIA website, proving, if nothing else, the great ubiquity of the "Queen of the Skies," as well as illustrating yet another interesting career facet of the most versatile aircraft in history, the immortal Boeing B-17.
 
I saw the Thunderball movie in 1966, then when I was stationed at NKP Thailand in 1967-68 I saw a aircraft , C-119 or C-123, with the apparatus on the nose, I knew they were either using it to retrieve agents, or something from Laos, or North Vietnam.

Whatever it was doing nobody talked about it, even though it was there in plain sight.
 
Point of fact this is the actual B-17 I'll be painting (hopefully sooner than later) "Outhouse Mouse" on.
 

Hi

I suspect that this is probably a 'garbled' and 'inaccurate' description of a message pick up device as used by Piper Cubs and other light aircraft during WW2 (although it has its origins with the British in the Middle East during WW1), I don't think the Cub could hover when picking up a package.
We see the Message Pick up device used in various forms from 1916, inter-war for example it was used by the US Postal service and in a larger form to pick up gliders during WW2. Still in use with the British Army Air Corps in 1960 from Auster's using the 'wire' method (there was also the 'stick' method which is seen under inter-war aircraft (from 1924) up to the Lysander in the British case. Today it is still in use as a method to pick up advertising banners by light aircraft. Countries that used these devices included UK, USA, Germany and Japan.

Mike


 
MikeMeech said:
I suspect that this is probably a 'garbled' and 'inaccurate' description of a message pick up device as used by Piper Cubs
Click to expand...

No Mike - it's real - it's called the bucket drop...

This Forgotten 1950s Flying Trick Could Be the Secret of Future Drone Warfare

"Nate Saint was a missionary to remote villages in Ecuador. He knew that the best way to prove friendly intentions to new groups of Waodani, a notoriously dangerous people, was to offer gifts, but he wanted a better way of delivering them than haphazard parachute drops. So he developed what he called the "bucket drop."
 

Hi

Thanks for that, interesting if short lived method. Not quite sure how the parrot got picked up safely, but I presume it recovered from the trauma. I presume inanimate objects must have been thrown into the 'bucket' to pick them up?

Mike
 
I can't help but think that Fulton Recovery System would be bad for back pain later in life, just like exiting an aircraft with an ejection seat. Spinal compression would seem to be a serious thing as one ages. No way I'd want to do it, my back hurts enough, and all I did was jump out of aircraft in flight.
 
As I understand it, the Fulton harness was used to recover agents in Laos and N Vietnam.
If they didn't use it they probably wouldn't have any chance of getting back pain later in life, there wouldn't be any later life, they'd be dead.
 
Graeme said:
pilot who could toss a long rope outta a Piper Cub and by spiraling the aircraft (I don't understand the physics) the end of the rope would lower vertically. [/B]
Click to expand...
Anybody who earned their Commercial License under the pre-1974 rules will remember that frustrating maneuver called a "pylon turn". This required you to orbit around a designated spot on the ground pretending you're a U-Control model airplane keeping your wingtip aimed at the spot and your radius of turn constant, compensating for wind by climbing and diving. Examiners ALWAYS wanted to see this maneuver on a checkride. A whole different ball game from the "turns about a point" you struggled to master for your PPL. Fairly easy to do, once you got the hang of it, in a slow, docile plane like a 150 or a Cub.
But then, under the new rules, I had to teach it to Commercial students in a much faster, slipperier, complex airplane. Truly vexing. All of a sudden, examiners became less enamored of that maneuver, as there were fatal accidents, and most got scared shitless at one time or another.
When asked what the utility of such a maneuver was, FAA inspectors would say it hones piloting skills, and then cite the infamous African missionary and airmail pilots of the 20s and 30s.
Cheers,
Wes
 

Or my favorite quote, "That's the way we've always done it"... Not really my favorite, more like most disliked as it showed complacency or lack of a fresh perspective.

Cheers,
Biff
 
glennasher said:
I can't help but think that Fulton Recovery System would be bad for back pain later in life, just like exiting an aircraft with an ejection seat.
Click to expand...
Actually, if you carefully watch videos of the Skyhook, you'll see that the bungee cushions the liftoff considerably. If you've ever ridden the "boom bucket" ejection seat trainer, you'd recognize the difference right away. It's like the difference between a .375 Weatherby Magnum and a .36 cal flintlock squirrel rifle. A slam in the butt vs a smooth but powerful acceleration. It's not the 7Gs that gets you, it's the suddenness with which they're applied. You'd probably get more spine compression in a bad parachute landing. It took me three days before I felt right after the boom bucket, a whole week after my second parachute jump, where I overshot my final wind alignment turn and came down hard on my butt.
Cheers,
Wes
 
You're probably right, I'd forgotten that the early ejection seats were fired by a cartridge, and after a lot of injuries, they switched to rocket-powered seats, to lessen the shock to pilot's spines. I still don't know about that Fulton rig, it looks pretty danged "iffy" to me.

I DO know that my back and knees have never been the same after my time in the 82nd, and that was when I was young and skinny! Going thru jump school, the black hats didn't know if I weighed enough to help open the chutes! Now, forty years later, my back says I certainly had enough heft to ruin my back and knees.
 
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