B-25's lost on 25-9-1944, ETO

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by Erich, Dec 21, 2011.

  1. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    Greetings Gents !

    trying to verify 4 claims made by Fw 190A-8's of IV./JG 54 over B-25 Mitchells on 25 of September 1944 and I am assuming this was in support of the bridgeheads being formed at Arnhem and Nijmegen. as I cannot seem to find US losses of B-25's on the date except one from the 310th bg which were not in the area but in the MTO were the British also operating this bird during this time and in support of the Allies ?

    many thanks for any and all help

    E ~
     
  2. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    Hi Erich. The B-25 was not operated by the USAAF in the northern ETO (ie Holland, France, Germany etc), but five RAF Squadrons were operational at this time, mainly with the Mitchell II, (B-25C/D). The B-25J (Mitchell III) was just reaching squadrons by September 1944.
    Leave this with me, and I'll see what I can find out - recently been reading about RAF Mitchell ops, and there were losses in the Arnhem area, in support of Market Garden.
     
  3. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    exciting stuff friend, I will await your response ...............

    E ~
     
  4. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    Knew I'd seen the information only a few days ago! Here it is.
    98 Squadron, RAF, based at Dunsfold, Surrey, UK, despatched 11 Mitchell IIs (B-25C/D) to Arnhem to bomb enemy gun positions.
    IV/JG54 attacked and, although they claimed four Mitchells destroyed, only two in fact were shot down. Claims were made by Maj. Wolfang Spate (1 claim) and Ltn. Heinrich Sterr, and the gun camera film from Spate (now in the Imperial war Museum, London) confirmed his claim.
    The Mitchells lost were serial numbers FW-194 and FW-211.
    Hope this helps Erich.
     
  5. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    WONDERFUL !

    now the question beckons did the British squadrons mention damaged B-25's coming back to base. might as well cover it all. would luv to see that Späte footage somehow.

    E `
     
  6. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    I haven't found any info on aircraft returning damaged due to air to air engagements. I'd need to check, but I believe this might have been the same engagement where Zumbach's RAF Mustangs waded in to the FW190s.
    It might be possible to obtain the gun-camera footage on DVD, although you'd possibly need the film catalogue number. The IWM now have an on-line enquiry and research facility, so a look at their web-site might reveal something.
     
  7. Crimea_River

    Crimea_River Well-Known Member

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    Great stuff here Terry!
     
  8. vikingBerserker

    vikingBerserker Well-Known Member

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    I agree, nicely done!
     
  9. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    Terry yes please check if the RAF Mustangs - ID the unit if possible were involved in this struggle, have to check the LW losses for the date as well

    many thanks

    E ~
     
  10. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    Will do Erich - give me a day or so, but might have the answer later tonight.
     
  11. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    super Terry !

    some additional info: there were approximately 14 Fw 190A-8's flying under the header Verband Späte against the Mitchell formation.

    am thinking about doing something rather soon with the JG 54 info's/text.
     
  12. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    Here's what I've pieced together so far.
    Allied air activity took place in the Arnhem and Nijmegen areas from first light, with numerous engagements throughout the day, in support of the withdrawal of British Airborne troops across the Lower Rhine at Arnhem (Oosterbeek).
    The formation of 11 Mitchell IIs from 98 Sqn, RAF, was apparently attacked by a mixed force from 14/JG4 and IV/JG54.
    Twenty five Mustang IIIs of 133 Wing, 2 TAF, lead by W/Cdr Jan Zumbach, and Spitfires of 118 Sqn, lead by W/Cdr Johnny Checketts then attacked the Luftwaffe aircraft. Pilots of 129 Sqn (Mustang III) claimed two FW190s and one Bf109 shot down, and one FW190 damaged.
    Zumbach claimed a FW190 as a 'probable', and a 306 Sqn (Mustang III) pilot claimed a FW190 as 'Damaged'.
    A claim for one Bf109 shot down was shared by Checketts and a 118 Sqn pilot.
    Two Mustangs were lost, reportedly to flak.
    The info is compiled from accounts in two books, and other tracts covering RAF Mitchell ops.
    Hope this is helpful Erich.
     
  13. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    yes indeed it helps Terry, thank you very much. will research further and if you can add more please do . . . .
     
  14. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    I've had a further look around Erich, but so far nothing to elaborate on the info already provided. However, events on the previous day, this day, and the following day where quite involved, with numerous combats taking place, mainly confused, and, at some stage, JG26 were also involved (though not with the RAF Mitchells), and claims logged from both sides. One is even an Auster AOP aircraft, shot down!
    I'll see if I can discover anything else, but the confusion and 'fury' of the many air battles are rather vague overall.
     
  15. Crimea_River

    Crimea_River Well-Known Member

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    From Caldwell's JG 26 book, on Sept 25/44:

    Total Luftwaffe losses (LKdo West) from all causes was 18 aircraft
    Germans claimed 10 certain and 4 probable kills on fighters
    British lost eleven Spitfires

    Not sure this helps but may add perspective.
     
  16. Alte Hase

    Alte Hase Member

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    Once again, Airframes lives up to his title :"Benevolens Magister"! A fascinating thread indeed! Thanks for enlightening us!
     
  17. hewasahero

    hewasahero New Member

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    Evening Gents!
    I know this is a really old thread, but I'm researching FW-211 for family reasons. Looking to write an article, for the project's sake.
    The reputed gun camera footage is proving elusive. Any guidance welcomed!

     
  18. Aozora

    Aozora Well-Known Member

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    From 2 TAF Volume 2 (Shores Thomas) pages 111-113:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  19. hewasahero

    hewasahero New Member

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    hi there!
    looking to confirm the exact crash location of fw211 (fw194 is known and commemorated). have a lead, supported by an original document which sadly doesn't go into detail on the aircraft. also would like to disprove a contending theory regarding the supposed crash site, that a Spitfire crashed there, possibly on 20Sept1944.
    thanks for any help you can give!
     
  20. hewasahero

    hewasahero New Member

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    thanks aozora!
    have attempted to follow up via both iwm and the authors, as well as on other forums.
    wish me luck!
     
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