B-29's versus Luftwaffe

[ralphwiggum]

What would the luftwaffe have to do to defend the Reich if they had to combat 8th airforce Superfortresses instead of B-17's and Liberators?
Anyone have any suggestions?

 

[Kurfürst]

Pack a couple of extra MG 151s/MK 108s on the fighters and thats it - and that they already did by 1943. While the B-29 was a much larger and tougher plane than the B17/24, it was still just a bomber, fuel tanks burned just the same on it, engines failed just to same when hit (and sometimes even without being hit ). I'd presume because the greater costs the USAAF would be able to field it in much smaller numbers, and losses would be more heavily felt.

The LW was rather concerned with the B-29 from Japanese reports, based on which they were attributing it with capabilities regarding its speed and ceiling the plane simply did not have - but a 'cure' against this phantom menace was created, the Ta 152.

 

[Marshall_Stack]

The B-29s would pose some problems. They fly higher, faster and have computing gunsights. They have a larger bombload so there wouldn't need to be as many planes or as many raids.

 

[delcyros]

They would likely also need to improve the AAA to 8.8cm FLAK 41 standarts.
And they would need some faster, higher flying nightfighter sooner.
GM-1 injection to all Reichs defense fighters, as standart equipment.

 

[HoHun]

Hi Ralphwiggum,

>What would the luftwaffe have to do to defend the Reich if they had to combat 8th airforce Superfortresses instead of B-17's and Liberators?

Interesting question ... here is a diagram which I prepared when I had a look at that question a while back.

The B-29 speeds are from a diagram in the B-29 manual that has the disadvantage that it lists the influence of the cowl flap position on speed, but doesn't point out how much cowl flap opening is required at a certain power setting under certain conditions. Accordingly, the B-29 might be a bit faster or a bit slower than indicated in my diagram, and the difference is probably not uniform over the entire diagram either.

The "kinks" in the B-29 graph probably result from the limited accuracy in reading the complex diagram.

Weight of course has a big influence on B-29 speed as well - I chose 90000 lbs as a reference because that simplified reading the diagram, but that might not turn out to be the most typical operational weight if you decide on a specific scenario.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[Erich]

not again ........

the TA 152H was never intended to combat high altitude B-29's, let's debunk the myth right now, tell the web-site owners you have been viewing that this is foolishness............ JG 301 pilots that flew the Tank and those that I have interviewed never even heard of the B-29.

besides the Me 262A-1 would of taken care of them both night and day if this would of happened in the real world

v/r Erich

 

[Vassili Zaitzev]

Hmm, not an expert on this, but oh well. I'd say the Luftwaffe would have to improve the FW190 design, perhaps develop the Ta-152 faster?

Edit: whoops, read Erich's post, so I'll defer to that.

 

[TheMustangRider]

The Luftwaffe would have had some tough times that's for sure.

 

[SoD Stitch]

This question was posed on another forum that I "attend". It was pointed out, quite rightly, that the LW would have a tough time, as the cruising speed at altitude was somewhere in the neighborhood of 350 mph+ for the B-29, which wouldn't give the defenders much time to scramble AND get up to 35,000 ft. in time to make the intercept; the only a/c that probably had a reasonable capability against the B-29 was the 262, as Erich ponted out. Add to this the fact that at that altitude most a/c would be approaching their stall speed, due to insufficient air at that altitude; any a/c that could make it up that far (besides the 262) was probably just over their stall speed after having made a max-V climb. Any violent evasive maneuvering at that altitude would probably result in an accelerated stall or a spin.

 

[Haztoys]

The Luftwaffe would have had some tough times that's for sure.

All and Every airforce of the time in the world would of had problems with the B-29...

And as those who feel the Me 262 is the fix all to all ...In 1945 the Me262 was still a b%#@tch to fly ..It took big skills and nuts to fly not some new flyer could do.....Were the US had 100's of B-29's flying with mear kids doing the driving ...A better motor in the Me262 and it would of gave the B-29 a run for its money..But the Me262 was just not cleaned up anuff when the two would of met in the skys over Germany in 45 ... ..

Any how ...The B-17 .B-24 .and Lanc's were getting the job done ...And the B-29 would of been even harder to stop..

(Would the Allies of had a plane to stop the B-29 if the shoe was on the other foot...???)

 

[GrauGeist]

The Do335 was an aircraft that would have been quite capable of intercepting the B-29, with a service ceiling over 37,000 feet and a top speed of 474 mph.

Perhaps under the protection of the Ta152, the Do335 would have certainly been a threat.

The Me262 could have been a key player in the interception of the B-29, however, climbing to that altitude would have burned a large portion of it's fuel supply, limiting it's time to engage.

 

[timshatz]

(Would the Allies of had a plane to stop the B-29 if the shoe was on the other foot...???)

Don't think so. American fighters were underarmed for attacking a heavy bomber. Maybe something like a Tempest would work. But even there, a 20MM was probably the minimum to use in attacking a B29 with any hope of a kill in one pass (going on that assumption).

Attacking and destroying the B29 poses a very tough tactical problem for any airforce.

 

[Marshall_Stack]

Maybe something like a Tempest would work. But even there, a 20MM was probably the minimum to use in attacking a B29 with any hope of a kill in one pass (going on that assumption).

I thought the Tempest was a low to medium altitude fighter.

 

[Soren]

The Me-262's would've shot the B29's down in droves. Furthermore the introduction of the B-29 to the ETO would've let to nearly all German fightersbeing equipped with the GM-1 boosting system.

Another problem with the B-29 is that its operating height was so high that the escorting fighters would have a hard time properly defending it. Now over Japan that wasn't the biggest of problems as only a few a/c could reach them, but in Europe it would be a disaster waiting to happen.

And forget about the computing gunsight, the B-17's B-24's had that as-well, yet they achieved very poor result in regards to bomber accuracy. The B-29 would because of the greatly increased operatiin height have an even higher inaccuracy.

As for the the Allies having anything to combat a bomber like the B-29, well as far as I can tell they had nothing besides the P-47, and it would need to be rearmed.

 

[Colin1]

As for the the Allies having anything to combat a bomber like the B-29, well as far as I can tell they had nothing besides the P-47, and it would need to be rearmed.

If circumstances had been different, the Allies could well have found themselves facing the He177, an aircraft with one or two parallels with the B29. It too suffered major teething problems, not least of which was its engines catching fire. Like the B29, it took a similar two years or so to properly iron out all of the problems though whereas the B29 stepped into an environment that exploited its advantages and provided a reasonable degree of air superiority, the He177 found itself with no decent fuel and pretty low down the list of priorities of the RLM by that time.

The Allies could put up Spitfire HF.VIs to counter the high-altitude Ju86P earlier in the war, so it shouldn't have been a problem to

(a.) emulate
(b.) push through in numbers

a similar or better plane to counter high altitude German heavy bomber streams.

 

[TheMustangRider]

American fighters were well armed for their role of defending bombers and taking down German fighters, but in the case that Germany would had been able to turn the tide of the war and once again would had launched a bomber force aimed to Great Britain; I suppose that the 12 mm machine guns of American fighters would had been force to evolve to 20 mm cannons and of curse the Spitfire would had been ready to defend once again Great Britain.

 

[Lucky13]

Would a well working He-277, problems ironed out, four engines in four nacelles etc., be as difficult to bring down as the B-29? And what about the Messerschmitt 264?

 

[TheMustangRider]

The Me-262's would've shot the B29's down in droves. Furthermore the introduction of the B-29 to the ETO would've let to nearly all German fightersbeing equipped with the GM-1 boosting system.

Another problem with the B-29 is that its operating height was so high that the escorting fighters would have a hard time properly defending it. Now over Japan that wasn't the biggest of problems as only a few a/c could reach them, but in Europe it would be a disaster waiting to happen.

And forget about the computing gunsight, the B-17's B-24's had that as-well, yet they achieved very poor result in regards to bomber accuracy. The B-29 would because of the greatly increased operatiin height have an even higher inaccuracy.

If the Me-262s could not keep up with B-17s and B-24s due to their limited numbers, fuel shortages and few trained pilots; the introduction of the B-29 in the ETO would had been the last blow for the Luftwaffe.

 

[Soren]

If circumstances had been different, the Allies could well have found themselves facing the He177, an aircraft with one or two parallels with the B29. It too suffered major teething problems, not least of which was its engines catching fire. Like the B29, it took a similar two years or so to properly iron out all of the problems though whereas the B29 stepped into an environment that exploited its advantages and provided a reasonable degree of air superiority, the He177 found itself with no decent fuel and pretty low down the list of priorities of the RLM by that time.

The Allies could put up Spitfire HF.VIs to counter the high-altitude Ju86P earlier in the war, so it shouldn't have been a problem to

(a.) emulate
(b.) push through in numbers

a similar or better plane to counter high altitude German heavy bomber streams.

Good points Colin.

Infact if the Germans had went on the offensive again I think the He-277, which was a further development of the He-177, would've caused some very serious problems. The He-277 had a very high ceiling (15km), and a top speed similar to that of the B-29, and the bombload was larger.

The high altitude Spitfires and the P-47 would've been the only fighters to counter them, and even then they would have a very hard time.

 

[Soren]

If the Me-262s could not keep up with B-17s and B-24s due to their limited numbers, fuel shortages and few trained pilots; the introduction of the B-29 in the ETO would had been the last blow for the Luftwaffe.

No, it would've just let to a lot of B-29's shot down because of a lack of escorts capable of properly defending them.