BATTLE OF THE NIGHT FIGHTERS

K5083 · Dec 31, 2021

It's like this. The Bf110 was the most successful twin of all time in terms of kills day and night. Ranked by high-score of the best ace*, it is third of all fighters behind Bf109 (Hartmann)and FW190 (Kittel), with Schnaufer's 121 kills. It may well be third of all fighters in total victories but good numbers are hard to find. It's in the running, anyhow.

The P-61? Totally irrelevant. Might as well have never existed.

* I rank fighters this way because to be well up on this list an aircraft needs to have seen a lot of combat over a period of time, keep its pilot alive, and be capable of getting kills.

Snautzer01 · Dec 31, 2021

K5083 said:
It's like this. The Bf110 was the most successful twin of all time in terms of kills day and night. Ranked by high-score of the best ace*, it is third of all fighters behind Bf109 (Hartmann)and FW190 (Kittel), with Schnaufer's 121 kills. It may well be third of all fighters in total victories but good numbers are hard to find. It's in the running, anyhow.

The P-61? Totally irrelevant. Might as well have never existed.

* I rank fighters this way because to be well up on this list an aircraft needs to have seen a lot of combat over a period of time, keep its pilot alive, and be capable of getting kills.

Both Kittel and Hartmann over claimed a lot that can not be found back in ussr airforce strenght reports etc.

wuzak · Dec 31, 2021

K5083 said:
It's like this. The Bf110 was the most successful twin of all time in terms of kills day and night. Ranked by high-score of the best ace*, it is third of all fighters behind Bf109 (Hartmann)and FW190 (Kittel), with Schnaufer's 121 kills. It may well be third of all fighters in total victories but good numbers are hard to find. It's in the running, anyhow.

The P-61? Totally irrelevant. Might as well have never existed.

* I rank fighters this way because to be well up on this list an aircraft needs to have seen a lot of combat over a period of time, keep its pilot alive, and be capable of getting kills.

Bf 110s obviously had a lot of targets and opportunities to get kills.

P-61s, not so much.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Dec 31, 2021

Snautzer01 said:
Both Kittel and Hartmann over claimed a lot that can not be found back in ussr airforce strenght reports etc.

Are Russian reports really accurate though?

Not saying there was not over-claiming, but I also question any Soviet report. We all know what reporting anything negative led to…

Snautzer01 · Dec 31, 2021

Read this thread. Hartmann: claims vs. victories - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum

FLYBOYJ · Dec 31, 2021

Nick Hector and Dan Case have a page on Facebook that attempts to show the accuracy of Luftwaffe pilots clams vs actual kills based on a given sample of claims. Hartmann was like 48%

Ovod · Dec 31, 2021

Snautzer01 said:
Both Kittel and Hartmann over claimed a lot that can not be found back in ussr airforce strenght reports etc.

Most pilots from all countries would have overclaimed their kill numbers - why pick on these two?

K5083 · Dec 31, 2021

if it wasn't Hartman, and I'm quite prepared to agree it may not be, it may be Barkhorn or Rall. It#s pretty sure that the order is 109, 190, 110. Incidentally, and maybe surprising, the top US fighter in this list is, probably, the P-39.

And, and given a target-rich environment the P-61 could have been a contender. But the US never faced anyone who could generate 300,000 sorties by night, so it remains irrelevant though it may have been superior to Bf110 in every way.. Good radar though.

FLYBOYJ · Dec 31, 2021

Ovod said:
Most pilots from all countries would have overclaimed their kill numbers - why pick on these two?

They are the most prominent. There are others who have similar statistics.

FLYBOYJ · Dec 31, 2021

Since we're talking night fighters, according to Dan and Nick's research - Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer was the top-scoring Nachtjäger of World War 2:

123 Total Claims
113 verified
10 overclaims
91.8% Claiming Accuracy

Ovod · Dec 31, 2021

FLYBOYJ said:
They are the most prominent. There are others who have similar statistics.

They are certainly the pilots with the most scrutinized combat records, I'd say. Has anyone checked the various allied aces lists to the same extent?

FLYBOYJ · Dec 31, 2021

Ovod said:
They are certainly the pilots with the most scrutinized combat records, I'd say. Has anyone checked the various allied aces lists to the same extent?

Yes, the same folks I mentioned have done similar. I believe Butch O'Hare and Buzz Wagner's combat claims/ kills have been looked at.

Snautzer01 · Dec 31, 2021

Ovod said:
Most pilots from all countries would have overclaimed their kill numbers - why pick on these two?

Because they were mentioned in that post.

FLYBOYJ · Dec 31, 2021

And not to go too far off topic - the more claims made, the more the count can be subject for review.

Snautzer01 · Dec 31, 2021

Nightfighters defending the reich had the benifit of radar and the victims fell mostly onto german held territory. More easy to count. Sea is more problematic and quite a few ended there.

MIflyer · Dec 31, 2021

The P-61 was described officially as the USAAF's "most maneuverable fighter of WWII." On the other hand maneuverability was not of much use in night fighting. The P-61 was almost certainly more survivable in daylight than any other prop driven night fighter, especially the models equipped with the turret. DH-98 Mossie versus FW-190 or BF-109 one on one in daylight did not do very well, neither did BF-110 versus other fighters. A pilot who did a lot of P-61 test flying said he could beat any four WWII prop driven day fighters in a P-61 with a well trained crew.

Thumpalumpacus · Dec 31, 2021

MIflyer said:
A pilot who did a lot of P-61 test flying said he could beat any four WWII prop driven day fighters in a P-61 with a well trained crew.

Where might I read this?

MIflyer · Dec 31, 2021

Thumpalumpacus said:
Where might I read this?

Old issue of Airpower/Wings. I probably have it somewhere.

K5083 · Dec 31, 2021

In general it's probably fair to claim that any adequate single will beat a twin unless the twin has a speed advantage. Twins are probably easier to see, easier to hit and less maneuverable. Maybe the P-61 coulda woulda. But it didn't.

Thumpalumpacus · Dec 31, 2021

MIflyer said:
Old issue of Airpower/Wings. I probably have it somewhere.

I'll do a little legwork and post something if I find it.

BATTLE OF THE NIGHT FIGHTERS

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