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I'd even say that the single 20 mm nose cannon was a bit on the weak side against fighters too, but before this opinion gets misunderstood, I'd like to point out that it was still a better setup than the P-51D's:
Me 109G-6: 1,8 MW
P-51D: 1,7 MW
(Not because of the neglegible 0.1 MW advantage, but because the cannon was centrally mounted and had no convergence issues.)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
You are forgetting about the two centrally mounted 13mm MGs apparently.So, against fighters you would take one centrally mounted 20mm in lieu of 6 x50 cal in wings?
One shell vs six - all capable of breaking a spar or killing a pilot or destroying an engine. Assuming each had at least one gun properly boresighted to hit what you are aiming at a 200 yards, the six gun Mustang has 5 more projectiles 'in the area' - some hitting the target -some near misses.
Interesting.
Hello Kurfürst
I assume that the Hisso's shell, being heavier and faster, was better against armour and so more dangerous to things behind the armour. Also heavier shells produces higher weight of fragments or it has more HE inside, usually both. And heavier and faster shell penetrates deeper into target before exploding if fusing is same.
That doesn't necessary means that Hisso was better gun, only that the philosophies behind the two guns were slightly different, 151 counted more on blast and numerous small fragments and Hisso more on kinetic energy and fewer but heavier fragments.
You are forgetting about the two centrally mounted 13mm MGs apparently.
1x20mm plus 2x13mm centrally mounted vs. 6x12.7mm is not that different. Given the nature of '44 air combat I'd take the platform with more guns. However i'd take 2x20mm and 2x13mm centrally mounted over both any day.
I think a single .50 cal round would have a very hard time ruining an engine from stern shots, and it wouldn't penetrate the pilots armour AFAIK. The .50 cal round wasn't at all the most destructive of rounds, and it often took alot to down a fighter.
I believe you would be wrong about a.) penetrating pilot's armor, and b.) inability to ruin an engine. The reason the SpecWar guys use the Barrett .50 is not only long range sniping but the ability to penetrate > 1/2 steel at 1200 yards to get to an engine. When the circumstances existed that it took a 'lot' of rounds it was usually because a.) not such a great shot or pilot in front is not making it easy - or the ranges start out at 300+ yards and a long ranging chase occurs.
Secondly, there were probably more hits (a lot more) from Mustangs in slight to great off angle shots than exactly 6 o'clock.. you may feel differently. Further on six o'clock shots there are slightly below to slightly above angles that would present nothing but ~ .032-.050 aluminum skin as a barrier to cylinder block/Supercharger to the .50 API. If you want to argue that a .50 can't defeat an engine under those circumstances from 200 yards, fire away.
But that having been said I'm not sure if I'd want a single central mounted 20mm cannon over six wing mounted .50 cal HMG's, the sheer amount of lead the six HMG's are spewing out should maen more hits pr. second, regardless of convergence.
I agree, that was my single point, along with the destructive power of a .50 against sheet metal, spars, and with unobstructed angle, to an engine
Now give me two central mounted 20mm cannons, that I'd take over six .50 cal HMG's any day, the 20mm cannon simply does a whole lot more damage pr. round.
I believe you would be wrong about a.) penetrating pilot's armor, and b.) inability to ruin an engine. The reason the SpecWar guys use the Barrett .50 is not only long range sniping but the ability to penetrate > 1/2 steel at 1200 yards to get to an engine.
When the circumstances existed that it took a 'lot' of rounds it was usually because a.) not such a great shot or pilot in front is not making it easy - or the ranges start out at 300+ yards and a long ranging chase occurs.
However the performance of the M61 is fairly comperable 4x M39's. Of course the M61 would weigh less than half that of the 4x M39's, though it is fairly bulky by comparison. (and of course requires power feed and spool-up time) The M61A1 is actually slightly less powerful than a battery of 4x M39's. (slightly lower rate of fire, both guns use same ammo)
The M61A2 has a slightly higher rate of fire at 6300/minute than the A1 and 50 pounds lighter - but in either case they both add up to 200-400 pounds for feed and storage depending on the ship.
Somthing that may be significant (or at least a bit odd) is that relatively few modern guns seem to use a Minengeschoss like shell. At least judging by the capacities listed here: Modern Fighter Gun Effectiveness
The exception would seem to be some 30 mm weapons like the ADEN and DEFA, though they still don't seem to manage to pack as much HE as with the WWII 30 mm German shells, even the streamlined ones -wich only hels slightly less filler in any case and much of this was due to the tracer as well. (on possible reason for the lower capacity is the use of significantly shorter -thus smaller- shells than the WWII german ones, so the streamlined fuze takes up proportionally larger space)
And indeed, cut-away pictures of the ADEN shell does look similar to the Minengeschoss.
Maybe, but remember that today we use far better armour piercing projectiles.
We are just recently using up all the WWII and Korean War surplus of 50 Ball and API in Iraq and Afghanistan
AFAIK the WW2 .50cal AP projectile wasn't capable of penetrating the pilots armour of LW fighters.
AFAIK it was but willing to be proven incorrect - but again recognizing that few relative shots were available with a pure 'no deflection' shot in which a lot of structure had the opportunity to deflect or cause a tumble.
Well considering the amount of rounds fired in one second by the six .50 cals I'd say it usually took a very good amount of rounds to down an enemy fighter.