the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
no but that's irrelivent..........
Best Bomber Killing Aircraft......
- Thread starter lesofprimus
- Start date
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
cheddar cheese
Major General
Quite simple - German for "Twin" 8)
Lightning Guy
Master Sergeant
- 2,511
- Apr 29, 2004
The 109Z would have been rather effective against bombers, it certainly had the firepower. It would have been a sitting duck against the Allied fighter cover though. The standard 109 had already "outgrown" its small wing and doubling the size of the aircraft was hardly going to help its handling any.
cheddar cheese
Major General
What were the proposed armament layouts for it?
The Messerschmitt development department received a directive in 1942 to begin work on a Zerstörer (destroyer, or heavy fighter). An earlier RLM directive of 1941 had tried to limit the amount of new designs coming from the major aircraft companies (to not disrupt the production lines with new aircraft), so it was decided to couple two Bf 109 fuselages together, along with a new center wing and tailplane section, to come up with the Me 109Z (Zwilling, or twin).
The Me 109Z prototype incorporated two Bf 109F-4 fuselages, joined with a new constant chord wing center section and parallel chord tailplane. Included also was the 109F-4 powerplant, the Daimler Benz DB 601E-1 engine (12 cylinder, liquid-cooled, inverted V - 1750 horsepower on takeoff). The main landing gear attachment point were moved inboard to attach to a strengthened centerline keel in each fuselage. The outermost main landing gear retracted outboard; the inner legs retracted into the new center wing section. A single pilot sat in the port cockpit and the starboard cockpit was faired over. Armament on the projected production models varied (see below).
Several other Me 109Z designs were planned, developed around the 109G fuselages. The Me 109Z was to use around 90% of pre-existing 109 parts, with only the new main wing and tailplane, modified landing gear mountings, slightly larger wheels, extra fuel tanks in place of the starboard cockpit and a few other components needed to complete the aircraft. A prototype was completed in early 1943, but it was damaged in an Allied air attack on the Messerschmitt test center, and the damage was deemed too severe for repair. The development was abandoned in 1944, and by then, the Me 262 jet fighter had taken wing. One interesting note: the North American aircraft company followed the same design (independently) to produce the P-82 Twin Mustang, which was two P-51 fuselages joined in a similar manner as the Me 109Z.
Max speed: 462mph/cruise speed: 352mph
Z-0 (1943)
A single Z-0 airframe was built using two standard F-4 airframes. It was destroyed in an air raid just before its completion. After its destruction the entire Me-109Z program was terminated.
Z-1 (project)
The Z-1 was a projected production version similar to the Z-0 but based on the G-5 instead of the F-4. Armament was to be 5 x MK 108.
Z-2 (project)
This was a bomber version with only 3 x MK 108 and a bomb load of 1100lb.
Z-3 (project)
The Z-3 was to have been powered by the Jumo 213 engine.
Z-4 (project)
This was a bomber version of the Z-3, also powered by the Jumo 213.
What Willie Messerchmitt had envisiond however was to have: 2 MK-108, 4 MK-131, 4 MK-151, and 2 MK-108 arming each Me-109Z. I agree that the Zwilling could have been an effective bomber killer if it could get through the fighter cover. I dont know much about the handling of the Z though but I dont think it would have done much against allied fighters.
The Me-309:
Type: Single-seat fighter
Origin: Messerscmitt AG
Models: V1 and V2
First Flight: June 1942
Service Delivery: None
Final Delivery: None
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Engine:
Model: Daimler-Benz DB 605B
Type: Inverted V12 liquid-cooled
Horsepower: 1,475
Dimensions:
Wing span: 11.04m (36 ft. 2¾ in.)
Length: 9.46m (31 ft. ½ in.)
Height: 3.45m (11 ft. 3 in.)
Wing Surface Area: N/A
Weights: (V1)
Empty: 3530kg (7,783 lbs.)
Maximum: 4250kg (9,371 lbs.)
Performance:
Maximum Speed: 733km/h (455 mph)
Initial climb: NA
Range: N/A
Service Ceiling: N/A
Armament: (V4)
Four 13mm Machine Guns
Two 20mm Cannon
Two 30mm Cannon
Avionics:
N/A
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comments:
The 309 was originally designed to be the definitive successor to the 109. Innovative features included a pressurized cockpit, tricycle landing gear, and a retractable radiator. However, the 309 could be out turned by the Bf 109G and was judged inferior to the Fw 190D and never reached production. The Me 609 was to be a twinned version similiar to the P-82.
The Me 109Z prototype incorporated two Bf 109F-4 fuselages, joined with a new constant chord wing center section and parallel chord tailplane. Included also was the 109F-4 powerplant, the Daimler Benz DB 601E-1 engine (12 cylinder, liquid-cooled, inverted V - 1750 horsepower on takeoff). The main landing gear attachment point were moved inboard to attach to a strengthened centerline keel in each fuselage. The outermost main landing gear retracted outboard; the inner legs retracted into the new center wing section. A single pilot sat in the port cockpit and the starboard cockpit was faired over. Armament on the projected production models varied (see below).
Several other Me 109Z designs were planned, developed around the 109G fuselages. The Me 109Z was to use around 90% of pre-existing 109 parts, with only the new main wing and tailplane, modified landing gear mountings, slightly larger wheels, extra fuel tanks in place of the starboard cockpit and a few other components needed to complete the aircraft. A prototype was completed in early 1943, but it was damaged in an Allied air attack on the Messerschmitt test center, and the damage was deemed too severe for repair. The development was abandoned in 1944, and by then, the Me 262 jet fighter had taken wing. One interesting note: the North American aircraft company followed the same design (independently) to produce the P-82 Twin Mustang, which was two P-51 fuselages joined in a similar manner as the Me 109Z.
Max speed: 462mph/cruise speed: 352mph
Z-0 (1943)
A single Z-0 airframe was built using two standard F-4 airframes. It was destroyed in an air raid just before its completion. After its destruction the entire Me-109Z program was terminated.
Z-1 (project)
The Z-1 was a projected production version similar to the Z-0 but based on the G-5 instead of the F-4. Armament was to be 5 x MK 108.
Z-2 (project)
This was a bomber version with only 3 x MK 108 and a bomb load of 1100lb.
Z-3 (project)
The Z-3 was to have been powered by the Jumo 213 engine.
Z-4 (project)
This was a bomber version of the Z-3, also powered by the Jumo 213.
What Willie Messerchmitt had envisiond however was to have: 2 MK-108, 4 MK-131, 4 MK-151, and 2 MK-108 arming each Me-109Z. I agree that the Zwilling could have been an effective bomber killer if it could get through the fighter cover. I dont know much about the handling of the Z though but I dont think it would have done much against allied fighters.
The Me-309:
Type: Single-seat fighter
Origin: Messerscmitt AG
Models: V1 and V2
First Flight: June 1942
Service Delivery: None
Final Delivery: None
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Engine:
Model: Daimler-Benz DB 605B
Type: Inverted V12 liquid-cooled
Horsepower: 1,475
Dimensions:
Wing span: 11.04m (36 ft. 2¾ in.)
Length: 9.46m (31 ft. ½ in.)
Height: 3.45m (11 ft. 3 in.)
Wing Surface Area: N/A
Weights: (V1)
Empty: 3530kg (7,783 lbs.)
Maximum: 4250kg (9,371 lbs.)
Performance:
Maximum Speed: 733km/h (455 mph)
Initial climb: NA
Range: N/A
Service Ceiling: N/A
Armament: (V4)
Four 13mm Machine Guns
Two 20mm Cannon
Two 30mm Cannon
Avionics:
N/A
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comments:
The 309 was originally designed to be the definitive successor to the 109. Innovative features included a pressurized cockpit, tricycle landing gear, and a retractable radiator. However, the 309 could be out turned by the Bf 109G and was judged inferior to the Fw 190D and never reached production. The Me 609 was to be a twinned version similiar to the P-82.
Attachments
cheddar cheese
Major General
Thanks for the info, nice pics too 8)
I have a bunch of pics on my computer I have a whole folder dedicated to the Luftwaffe aircraft and next I am going to do the allies starting with the British and the US. I try to collect as many pictures and specs and break them down by type.
cheddar cheese
Major General
Thats exactly what I do. Apart from the specs that is. I also have a whole folder with pictures of the P-38 in, I currently have 156 and counting!
Damn you love that Lightning dont you?
cheddar cheese
Major General
Yep 8)
I have about 10 of the P.108, I would have more, if I could find more
I have about 10 of the P.108, I would have more, if I could find more
I can help you. I dont have any either. What aircraft was the P.108. I cant remember that one.
cheddar cheese
Major General
cheddar cheese
Major General
I happen to think its a good pictue too, but for different reasons
Ah yes I know which aircraft you are talking about. Yeah the first one was good.
The Piaggio P.108 B was the only heavy four-engine bomber to see service with the Regia Aeronautica during World War Two. Too few were built to play a significant role in the war, only 163 P.108 Bs having been built. The P.108 B was an all-metal cantilever low-wing monoplane with an retractable under-carriage, driven by four 1,350 hp Piaggio P.XII radial engines. The first prototype was finished in 10/39 and had a very advanced defensive armament for its day of two 7.7 mm machine waist guns, a 12.7 mm machine gun in the lower turret and a similar weapon in the nose turret, and two remotely-controlled twin gun turrets in outer engine nacelles. The first Allied bomber with a similar armament was the Boeing B 29, developed four years later. The bomb load of the Piaggio comprised of 7,700 lbs, all carried internally in the bomb bay.
The only unit of the Regia Aeronautica ever to fly the P.108 B was the 274th Long-Range Bombardment Group. This unit was formed in 5/41 around the first machines that came off the assembly lines. The training of the crews lasted far longer than anticipated and in 6/42 the 274th became operational. The most spectacular raids with the P. 108 B were flown in 10/42 when several night attacks against Gibraltar were undertaken from Sardinia. Several versions were derived from the P. 108 B: such as the P.108A, which had a 102 mm anti-shipping gun in the nose; the P.108C airliner and the P.108T transport. The latter two versions had a larger diameter fuselage for transporting passengers or freight. They were hardly used by the Regia Aeronautica, the main user being the German Luftwaffe. In 9/43, after the Italian armistice, the Luftwaffe had captured all fifteen P.108 Cs and P.108 Ts built. They were used at the Russian front, as part of Luftflotte 2, where they performed sterling duties, among others during the evacuation of the Crimea in 1944.
Model Piaggio P 108
Horsepower 1350 x 4
Engine Piaggio P.IIX RC 35
Max Speed 420 km at 3,900 m
Range 3,520 Km
Max Elevation 8,050 m
Wingspan 32 m
Height 7.70m
Weight 17,320 Kg
Max Weight 29,885 Kg
Length 22.92m
Crew 6
Payload 3,500 Kg
Armament 6 x 12,7 mm + 1 x 12,7 mm + 2 x 7.7 mm
Here is the only pic of the P.108 I have at this moment. I have not started on my Italian folder yet.
The Piaggio P.108 B was the only heavy four-engine bomber to see service with the Regia Aeronautica during World War Two. Too few were built to play a significant role in the war, only 163 P.108 Bs having been built. The P.108 B was an all-metal cantilever low-wing monoplane with an retractable under-carriage, driven by four 1,350 hp Piaggio P.XII radial engines. The first prototype was finished in 10/39 and had a very advanced defensive armament for its day of two 7.7 mm machine waist guns, a 12.7 mm machine gun in the lower turret and a similar weapon in the nose turret, and two remotely-controlled twin gun turrets in outer engine nacelles. The first Allied bomber with a similar armament was the Boeing B 29, developed four years later. The bomb load of the Piaggio comprised of 7,700 lbs, all carried internally in the bomb bay.
The only unit of the Regia Aeronautica ever to fly the P.108 B was the 274th Long-Range Bombardment Group. This unit was formed in 5/41 around the first machines that came off the assembly lines. The training of the crews lasted far longer than anticipated and in 6/42 the 274th became operational. The most spectacular raids with the P. 108 B were flown in 10/42 when several night attacks against Gibraltar were undertaken from Sardinia. Several versions were derived from the P. 108 B: such as the P.108A, which had a 102 mm anti-shipping gun in the nose; the P.108C airliner and the P.108T transport. The latter two versions had a larger diameter fuselage for transporting passengers or freight. They were hardly used by the Regia Aeronautica, the main user being the German Luftwaffe. In 9/43, after the Italian armistice, the Luftwaffe had captured all fifteen P.108 Cs and P.108 Ts built. They were used at the Russian front, as part of Luftflotte 2, where they performed sterling duties, among others during the evacuation of the Crimea in 1944.
Model Piaggio P 108
Horsepower 1350 x 4
Engine Piaggio P.IIX RC 35
Max Speed 420 km at 3,900 m
Range 3,520 Km
Max Elevation 8,050 m
Wingspan 32 m
Height 7.70m
Weight 17,320 Kg
Max Weight 29,885 Kg
Length 22.92m
Crew 6
Payload 3,500 Kg
Armament 6 x 12,7 mm + 1 x 12,7 mm + 2 x 7.7 mm
Here is the only pic of the P.108 I have at this moment. I have not started on my Italian folder yet.
Attachments
cheddar cheese
Major General
Yeah I got that one and the information
It the only one I have right now.
cheddar cheese
Major General
There is my two - I have a few others I can post too if you like.
sure go ahead that way I can already copy them
cheddar cheese
Major General
Users who are viewing this thread
Similar threads
