Best Bomber Killing Aircraft......

[Civettone]

Well Erich, you still have to prove it's the little fart you claim it to be

As to answer the original question of this topic, to me it's clear that the Germans didn't have a really good bomber killing aircraft, else they wouldn't have been in the **** they had been in. To me it should have two main virtues, and that's speed and firepower. The speed should be at least equal to that of the P-51 and the firepower at least 4 20mm guns or 2 30mm guns or something with equal destructive power. The Germans didn't have anything for that speed requirement until the arrival of the Me 262 and Me 163 when it was already too late. But then, the Me 262 does meet the requirements. Also, the later Do 335 but who would want to waste two DB 603 engines when a Ta 152 could achieve the same with one?

To me there were three alternatives presented to the Germans in late 1943 but they failed to follow up on these ideas: the cheap Bf 109Z, the Italian G.55/56 and finally a simple single-engined fighter (The Fw P III and IV, the Me P 1095, the Lippisch P 20, ...).

But all in all, I would go for the Bf 109G-6/R6. It may not meet the requirements I set forward, but it was the best from a cost benifit analysis. In fact, the Bf 109 could do pretty much everything* the Fw 190 could but at a lower cost.
(* except carrying a heavy bomb load)

Kris

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The Germans did not have anything that matched the speed of the P-51D until the Me-262?

You sure about that?

 

[Erich]

actually Kris I don't have to prove anything history has proven it already, I'll get around and print out Rudi's response to me back in 99 for all to read, as some of the language descriptions for 1945 were pretty dramatic ... ..

to your statements about a German bomber killer I will heartily agree they had nothing as they did not expect such a severe pounding over their homeland, with the experiments of dropping bombs, different rocket projections, heavier cannon, sleeker designs in the 262; the Reich was doomed and they all new it by mid-1944. My Familie knew it all to well, my cousin in JG 301 knew it was suicide when he gave his life up on 26 November 44, but yet they felt as we would-to do everything to protect your homes from the enemy. Something needed to be invented aerially to counter the P-51 threat,- there was nothing. without that, overall destruction of the US heavies was practically nullified.

E ~

 

[Civettone]

I'm with you on that the Germans didn't see what was coming their way.

On the other hand, it's even worse than that. What was coming their way was simply ignored. It all started with Hitler's opinion that the Americans couldn't produce a quality aircraft because he had regularly seen American cars break down...
Did you ever read that story of the fight between Galland and Göring back in 1943. Galland had reported to Hitler that there were American escort fighters shot down near Aachen, so over German territory. Göring went into a rage and said it was nonsense. Galland remained cool, with his cap in the usual skew position, a cigar between his teeth "well, it's the truth, if you don't believe me, come with me, I'll show them to you." And than Göring again "it's impossible, I'm a fighter pilot too, I know that it's not true. Admit that you were wrong!". "No Herr Reichsmarshall, they're there. And soon they'll be flying ever further" Then Göring again: "Perhaps they were shot down over occupied territory and simply glided down to German territory??" Galland with a mocking smile: "Glided down, sir?". Finally Göring "I hereby give you an order that those fighters were not shot down near Aachen! Do you hear that? I order you that those American fighters weren't there!!" Galland "Wel, orders are orders..." I would have loved to be a witness of that!!


PS looking forward to Rudi's response. I prefer to call the little fart a little flee, I'm sure you know why
Kris

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Good story about Galland up there. I really think it would have been neat to meet him. He was a typical fighter pilot in my opinion. Cocky except he could back it up.

 

[Wespe]

Hi guy's as you can see I am new on this forum

Quote Civettoneto: to me it's clear that the Germans didn't have a really good bomber killing aircraft.
Now I would say "that is totally not clear". The Germans had fantastic bomber killing aircrafts. To kill a bomber you need machines able to carry "weapons of bomber mass destruction"
e.g. MK-108, MK-101, 3,7-cm-Flak 18, R4M's, BK-50mm, WGr. 21, etc. and an abundance of ammo. So I would say, let's look at just the 2 engine Lw planes, Me-110,Me-410,He-219 and off course the Me-262.[/LEFT]

It is just, that the Lw didn't have enough, and besides the Me-262 none of these bomber killers had a chance to fight the day escort fighters.
But they were still terrifying bomber killers.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Fw-190 was a very fine bomber killer.

 

[Erich]

point of the matter was not enough of the machines, as I stated you had to take care of what was above you so you could close in and fire effectively without .50's coming down on your head. The US AF was overwhelming in their defense and coverage of the big friends, obviously they could not be everywhere over miles and miles of compacted bombers so the Luftwaffe was able to score heavily on occasion ... .

 

[Wespe]

Correct,

But it wasn't able to cruise (range) and attack (ammo) for hours, which a two engined plane could do, especially at night.(excluding the 262)

That is why I refered only to twin engined bomber killers

 

[Erich]

well actually my German friend the Nachtjäger were not up for hours in any twin engine a/c, this by the times of their kills. Maybe up to an hour or less searching. Much fuel was expended to get into a Pulk of Hali's or Lancs and many especially inexperienced crews never found the bombers. But when they did we know the devastating results. Even my cousin Hans Baer in the heavy Do 217 was able to shoot down 2-3 Lancs when he got in amongst them while in 4./NJG 3. to me the Do 217 was a big ugly slow thing but it did the job at the time . . . ........
there was talk of extending the Ju 88G-6 to the G-10 limits with loads of fuel so it could range wide and far over England on Fernenachtjagd and then get back home in 45. several are suppose to have been given to NJG 3 for testing, but am not sure if this was ever completed.

 

[Wespe]

Hi Erich,

If I recall correctly, it was H. Schnaufer who mentioned the disadvantage of not being able to cruise for hours, due to the fact that many crews, especially the new ones took to much time to find the bombers. Therefore a twin engine a/c would still have been better then a single engine a/c. which is reflected if you look at the planes that took part in the NJG's.

 

[Erich]

yes I know these things.....look back in some of the archiv threads and you will see why: Mossie versus Ju 88, and the he 21 thread(s). As I said a cousin flew the Do 217 and later the Bf 110G-4 in II./NJG 5 as Gruppenkommanduer, an ace with 12 kills before his un-timely accidental death

 

[Civettone]

Good story about Galland up there. I really think it would have been neat to meet him. He was a typical fighter pilot in my opinion. Cocky except he could back it up.

I couldn't agree more, Adler, that's also how I see him.
I also notice that he played an important role in post-war Luftwaffe research as he was always willing to talk about the war and answer questions from people like us.
8) Respect!

Hi guy's as you can see I am new on this forum

Quote Civettoneto: to me it's clear that the Germans didn't have a really good bomber killing aircraft.
Now I would say "that is totally not clear". The Germans had fantastic bomber killing aircrafts. To kill a bomber you need machines able to carry "weapons of bomber mass destruction"
e.g. MK-108, MK-101, 3,7-cm-Flak 18, R4M's, BK-50mm, WGr. 21, etc. and an abundance of ammo. So I would say, let's look at just the 2 engine Lw planes, Me-110,Me-410,He-219 and off course the Me-262.[/LEFT]

Wespe welcome. I'm curious, what's the story behind your signature?


As to your reply to my comment that the LW didn't have good bomber killing aircraft, I still stand by it because that claim is based on two observations: they weren't fast enough or they didn't have the right armament. The first one is clear: only jet fighters and the Ta 152 had the required speed to outrun the P-51 (and perhaps the Bf 109K though that still remains to be seen). Except for the Komet, these aircraft appeared in late 1944 when it was already too late.
As to your armament examples, the MK-101 fired too slow, perhaps you meant the MK 103, the 3,7-cm-Flak 18 used Hartkern ammunition which was hardly available, R4M's appeared in 1945, the BK-50mm could only fire once per pass, and the WGr. 21 wasn't accurate enough to actually shoot down bombers.

Kris

 

[Udet]

"only jet fighters and the Ta 152 had the required speed to outrun the P-51 (and perhaps the Bf 109K though that still remains to be seen)."

Do not forget the G-5,-6,-14/AS and the G-10, all versions could outrun the Mustang.

 

[Civettone]

"only jet fighters and the Ta 152 had the required speed to outrun the P-51 (and perhaps the Bf 109K though that still remains to be seen)."

Do not forget the G-5,-6,-14/AS and the G-10, all versions could outrun the Mustang.

Please explain. At what altitude were those faster than the Mustang?

Kris

 

[Wespe]

I couldn't agree more, Adler, that's also how I see him.
I also notice that he played an important role in post-war Luftwaffe research as he was always willing to talk about the war and answer questions from people like us.
8) Respect!


Wespe welcome. I'm curious, what's the story behind your signature?


As to your reply to my comment that the LW didn't have good bomber killing aircraft, I still stand by it because that claim is based on two observations: they weren't fast enough or they didn't have the right armament. The first one is clear: only jet fighters and the Ta 152 had the required speed to outrun the P-51 (and perhaps the Bf 109K though that still remains to be seen). Except for the Komet, these aircraft appeared in late 1944 when it was already too late.
As to your armament examples, the MK-101 fired too slow, perhaps you meant the MK 103, the 3,7-cm-Flak 18 used Hartkern ammunition which was hardly available, R4M's appeared in 1945, the BK-50mm could only fire once per pass, and the WGr. 21 wasn't accurate enough to actually shoot down bombers.

Kris

Hi Kris,

Well I lost quite heavily on a bet, believing that there was no such thing as a Chinese, officially wearing a Wehrmacht uniform.
In the ongoing research I found out that this fellow was, Chiang Wei Guo, one of Chiang Kai Shek's sons who studied at the Wehrmacht Officer school in Munich prior to the outbreak of WW2.

So; sometimes you just got to see something in order to believe it.

Regarding your denial of the Lw having bomber killers; well they had – but not enough, not enough, not enough, and according to my uncle, he didn't have a problem to outrun a Mustang or whatever with his Fw-190D-12. But he always kept saying; we didn't have enough, enough, enough.

All the best
Wespe

 

[Erich]

Wespe your uncle was ? with JG 26 correct ?

Kris the G-10 was the fastest of the Bf 109 breed according to NJG 11 vets who in March 45 took on RAF as well as day missions against US P-51's and of course idiotic ground attack when they added underwing 2cm gun pods to the G-10..........really stupid

 

[Wespe]

Wespe your uncle was ? with JG 26 correct ?

Kris the G-10 was the fastest of the Bf 109 breed according to NJG 11 vets who in March 45 took on RAF as well as day missions against US P-51's and of course idiotic ground attack when they added underwing 2cm gun pods to the G-10..........really stupid

Hi Erich,

JG 26, no sorry – he is from Augsburg, started of in I ZG1, then was with Erp.210 (My Wespe Avatar) is in memory to him – continued as a liaison pilot Paris-Barcelona whilst being stationed in France and ended the war in Bad Woerishofen, from where he frequently had to fly missions around Muechen-Riem and Lagerlechfeld.

Wespe

 

[Erich]

what was his late war unit flying the D-12 ? not Würger staffel of JV 44 as they defended München-Riem ?

 

[Wespe]

what was his late war unit flying the D-12 ? not Würger staffel of JV 44 as they defended München-Riem ?

Hi Erich,

my uncle Edwin Eberhardinger somtimes mentioned a Krupinski and a Oberst Morgenstern who was later Kommodore in Lagerlechfeld were my uncle also served with the new Luftwaffe.
Since he was a gifted photographer, (did some books - Flug ueber Schwaben/Franken) he had an abundance of photos showing him and comrades in front of D-11/12 and Ta-152's. As far as I can recall, my uncles unit was disolved in March 45 and he was transfered to the Verbandsfuehrerschule in Woerishofen. He mentioned that he did not want to fly jets but prefered the piston engines, and after a big discussion he managed to get one of these new Fw's, of which he said (did some competitive flying) that it was much better then those "Duesenjaeger" that never worked and that the Americans were cowboys who always tried to shoot down the landing Lw pilots. Sometimes a dozen of them trying to hunt down a single Lw pilot. The war ended with him being at Lagerlechfeld. He never mentioned the names "Wuergerstaffel" or "Papageienstaffel". It was only a few years ago that I came across these terms.

Wespe