Best Bomber Killing Aircraft......

Erich said:

Neto a few things about me :

I am not a WW2 vet. am 54 years old. I did have two relatives serve in the Luftwaffe, 1 a day fighter pilot the other a night fighter ace and finished as Gruppenkommandeur of II./NJG 5 flying the Bf 110G-4. Both pilots were killed in the war. Also had 3 other men on my mothers side that served in the Heer on the Ost front, 2 of them died in action, the other as he was released from a Soviet Gulag died on his way home to the Pfalzland.

have studied the LW Nachtjagd, men and machines and units, radar and almost everything about it since 1964.

Gruß E ~

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Easy, i am talking about Erich Alfred Hartmann the best ww2 ace with 352 kills, forgive if i don't explain me very well .. i only want know more about this famous ace.

I'm prejudiced to the FW 190A8 A lot of their pilots dumped the extra armor for better performance and, With the 30mm cannon it takes a very few rounds
to kill a heavy bomber

Neto said:

ok lol.. so i see that you like Erich you can tell me one thing? he participated in missions over the Western front theater ?

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As far as I know (others can correct me if I'm wrong), he spent NO time on the Western Front; all of his time was spent on the Eastern Front. In fact, he was offered a spot in the Me 262 unit Galland was forming on the Western Front in '45, but he turned it down (even after making a flight in a 262) because he felt he could do more good on the Eastern Front defending Germany from the "Russian hordes".

E.H. was not the best ace......period

the most kills on the east front, then yes

I say Bf-109G, a 30 mm gun in the nose, that could reak some havic.........I heard it only took 3 shots in the right place to knock a B-17 out. Imagine what that would do to the escort......

Hey Engineer, how about the Fw 190A-8 with 2x 30mm and 2x 20mm.... Kinda make one hub fired 30mm kinda obsolete in the Bomber Killing Dept...

Yes Fw-190A-8, surely the No.1 armed fighter in ww2 and as such probably the most potent bomber destroyer.

Was the Do 335 B2 acctually configured with nose mounted 1x30mm and 2x20mm, plus 2x30mm in underwing gondolas? If so it would have had even more firepower then the 190A-8.

Regards
Kruska

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Underwing gondolas usually put enough of a performance penalty to limit intercepting abilities, as long as they're MK 108's it's reasonable though. (with 103's no way, and wing mounts for them would be inaccurate due to recoil twisting the wings)
The 190 had the MK 108's mounted in place of the outer wing MG 151/20's but they were only close range weapons. (not much good beyond 300m)

I think the Do 335's nose mounted 30mm was the MK 103 though, a much larger and more powerful gun (albeit at a lower rate of fire) than the 108 and on a centerline mounting allowing hits at max range. (with 500m probably being possible with some decent accuracy, more with a very skilled marksman)


The 190 also had the nose-mounted 2x MG 131's (albeit a bit weak for this role) and 2x MG 151/20 in the wing roots with 250 RPG! The centerline mounting meant no convergence zone, though hits at max range. (while not the best 20mm gun, it was pretty good and in this case carried a lot of ammo and the mine round held a lot of HE, albeit at the expense of poor ballistic shape. The HE(XM) -high capacity mine round- weighing 104g with 25g HE filler)

I guess that as a day fighter the D0335 would have been fitted with R4M's instead of gondolas. As for a role as a night-fighter the reduction in speed due to its gondolas would probably not cause any difficulty to cope with a bomber flying at 350-400km/h.

I think the decisive factors would have been loitering time and ammo carriage capabilities especially as a night-fighter. In this criteria I tend to favour the 335 (but I could be wrong).

Regards
Kruska
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curious why are you posing a what if with the Do 335 in this thread as well as nf ? the way of the jet was at hand, all prop jobs except the Ta 152H were to be replaced during summer of 45 for Tagdjagd. the 262 single seat had proven itself, other gruppen would have followed for nf duties, the Do 335 was not even considered seriously in the nf role. I'm doing a book co-authoring on the NF Reich defence duties, data collected for over 35 years so there will be much included as to why I consider my statements as truth

The Me 262 was certainly the best interceptor fielded. Even with the ongoing problems. (particularly the engines, which were much better by the war's end)

Though for a/c that saw more extensive service in the role, it's probably the Fw 190A-8. (maybe the A-9)

Erich said:

curious why are you posing a what if with the Do 335 in this thread as well as nf ? the way of the jet was at hand, all prop jobs except the Ta 152H were to be replaced during summer of 45 for Tagdjagd. the 262 single seat had proven itself, other gruppen would have followed for nf duties, the Do 335 was not even considered seriously in the nf role. I'm doing a book co-authoring on the NF Reich defence duties, data collected for over 35 years so there will be much included as to why I consider my statements as truth

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You are correct in that this thread the question is about which aircraft is the best bomber killer. Taking into account the superb performance of the 335 and the asumtion that it could be additionally armed with 2 gondolas and R4M's it well could have been the best in this role. Adding the chance that it could also have been used as a NF. I am not aware that the 335 had any major engine difficulties such as any German jet.

I do not believe that the German jets would have achieved a reliable performance at any time due to the existing material shortage of alloys. No matter if summer or winter 45.

In contra I would strongly believe that this advanced technology was only exploitable by the US as it proofed after the war due to its seemingly endless resources and $$. As for Germany it proofed to be a fatal choice and instead of developing and pressing a new generation of affordable and technically developed props such as the USA in the form of a P51/P47 or F4U the limited resources in regards to material/scientists was diverted into "mystic" wunderwaffen believes.

The only new props available in 44 that could have been pushed faster into service were the 152 or D11-14 or the 335 but due to to the above mentioned reasons they were neglegted in favour of "mystic" a/c and weapons.

That the 335 was not ment to serve as a NF in 45 is certainly correct, therfore I am meerly forwarding the idea that it could have served in its role as a bomber killer just as well during night and day.

As for two of my uncles (one is a real uncle) and two of their Fliegerkameraden (3 survived the war) all were piloting from 39-45, none of them supported the jets as an alternative to the overall prop solution. If one of them would have flown a 262 it would not have changed their mind in regards to a "future" alternative but a presently needed realistic support in means of advanced props in 44/45

None of them believed in 44 that the war could be won (especially not by Wunderwaffen) but they desperatly eyed and waited for support by advanced props in order to stop the Bombers and not a 262 or other jets that were to unreliable to ensure that support.

Offcourse I do admit that a "working" and "reliable" 262 must have been the solution to any desperate Luftwaffe Pilot in 45, but unfortunatly they were not working reliable. In contra a 109K, D-12 or D-9 or 335 was.

Regards
Kruska
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me 262

Another advantage of jet engines is onece you've got a design working it can be developed, expaded, and bulit upon at a rate inconcivable for piston engine designs. Hence why the US was able to catch up so fast even with the late start. The J31-to-J-33 and J30-to-J34 being the best examples of this.

However the original designs were still being worked out, had it not been due to some of the mechanical (turbine vibration) problems when switching from the 004A (1941) to the initial 004B design it would have gone alot smoother it wasn't till the 004D nearing production in early 1945 (produced before war's end,) that the vibration (and thus the 8700 rpm linit) was resolved. The 003 was still a bit from working in the same period as the 004 in '41 as it had both some compressor, turbine, and combustor problems to work out (basicle the whole design deeded work, hence the low power output of the early test engines), however it turned out to be easier to build than the 004B in addition to bing more compact, relaible, and better performing. And I'm not even going into the HeS-30 (006) design... And in hindsight the HeS-011 should never have been developed.

Over Europe - Me 262 with it's four MK 108 30 mm cannons;
Over Pacific - 1941/1942 A6M2 Zeke, 1943-1945 F6F and N1K2-J

I really don't know but I would say Me-210/410, Me-110, or Me-262

Over the Pacific it would have to be the J2M Raiden. The only Japanese plane good in combat with the B29.

Over Europe the Me262 with its 4x30mm cannon and the R4M rockets was pretty tough as the rockets had the same trajectory as the cannon, so easy to aim.

Allied wise the Black widow or mosquito FB would cause alot of damage if you got in front of it.

The hienklel he 219 uhu was definitly a force to contend with at night. But during the day the me 410 hornes was bloody efective given that there were no escorts. With escorts the best interceptore would have to be the me 262. Keep in mind that with closing speeds of up to 700+ miles per hour the jet pilots coudent aim well or get many shots on target, its strengh was its speed could out run fighters. Luckly for the germans 4 30mm cannons don't need much hits on target to bring down a bomber.

First off, this argument on the 262 being too fast? WTF? Tell that to the Mig-15 pilots against the B-29s with there remote/radar gunners. I do like the a8/R8, but lets remember, it needed escorts, namely, 109G6s and G10s. The FW190A8/R8 was poor high altitude performer anyways, and all that added weight just contributed to it. Though, Macky stated that in a turn he could see the 30mm shells due to poor velocity. Ok, we got that, but 2 or 3 of those shells in the right place knock a 24 or 17 right out of the air, no question. And you never fire from a distance, lest you guys forget Erich Bubi Hartmanns motto,"Get so close the enemy fills your windshield"

IMHO to kill bombers you need two things: Fast climb and heavy and accurate armament.

If this is the criterion...262. No argument. The only weak point of the 262 was the short range of the MK 108.