Best Bomber Killing Aircraft......

[fly boy]

but it can shoot down a flying tank.

flying tank what?

 

[Erich]

sorry for reasons that I have already stated in the best nf thread about the He 219, the Ju 88G-6 was superior. in fact due to the over-arming of the 219 the underfuselage arms were reduced in I./NJG 1. Two man crew was a prob, the ejection seat had its fallacies with too many crews busting out through glass. no rear mg 131 for a Mossie deterent, on it goes. he 219 was a sitting duck in daylight making transfer flights and being hunted down by RAF fighters. the Uhu's record was not impressive as some would believe.

I'll make no comment about twin seat B-1a/U1 262's during the day.

 

[drgondog]

sorry for reasons that I have already stated in the best nf thread about the He 219, the Ju 88G-6 was superior. in fact due to the over-arming of the 219 the underfuselage arms were reduced in I./NJG 1. Two man crew was a prob, the ejection seat had its fallacies with too many crews busting out through glass. no rear mg 131 for a Mossie deterent, on it goes. he 219 was a sitting duck in daylight making transfer flights and being hunted down by RAF fighters. the Uhu's record was not impressive as some would believe.

I'll make no comment about twin seat B-1a/U1 262's during the day.

That about sums it up.

On the B-1a/U1 - AFAIK it never flew a day mission, not sure what the operational history was - my only point is if I had to choose between a 219 and a 262 to perform both day and night there would be no contest for me.

The actual operational status would have a bearing on even considering the 262 in actual night ops?

 

[Bill G.]

"Bill - good choice for night time. Would you choose over the 262 two seater night fighter that could also be 'pressed into' daylight role?

Conversely how would He 219 do in daylight?"

drgondog:

Both are good questions.

The Me-262 two seater isn't as good as a single seater. But that is a given. It would still be an improvement over all of the piston engined fighters. I guess you could give the back seater the day off. Yep, pun intended!

The He-219 would be better than most of the twin piston engined fighters of the Luftwaffe. Given a chance to slip inside of the fighters, the He-219 would be very damaging to B-17s and B-24s. The trick would be to stay outside of the effective range of massed 50 cal fire. The He-219 would be death to any straggling bomber.

An optimized He-219 for day operations would strip the radar (drag, weight) and delete the radar operator position and gear. And remove the upward firing cannons and ammo. This would lighten the He-219 and give it a higher top speed. The P-38 was one of the few twin engined fighters that got it right. Two engines don't mean you need two crew members and rear weapons.

The He-219 isn't a dog fighter. It's only defence is to use it's 400+MPH speed to escape. I am not a big fan of rear defence weapons on a fighter. You are outgunned every time. You are better off being able to break off the fight or at least stretch out the fight to the point the escort will break off to save fuel and stay in the area of the bombers. This is live to fight another day.

And to all. I took this thread to be all bomber killers. If my jumping into night fighting offended anyone by going in an unwanted direction, I am sorry. I mean no harm.

Bill G.

 

[Erich]

Bill

I have chatted many times with the historian of I./NJg 1 out of Venlo, the Uhu never could hit 400 mph plus there were so many technical entanglements besides the beast being way too big over all. A Mossie hunter A-6 was invisioned but even with it's stripped armor and armament it was felt there ws nothing gained in producing it. In regards to I./NJG 1 they approved and loved the Uhu in comparison to the Bf 110G-4 which was cramped and way too slow but yet still flew with success with the other 3 gruppen of NJG 1. another aspect quite often overlooked was the the missing component of most Uhu's on ops and that is lack of rearward radar a standard fit to the Ju 88G-6. As I said flying the Uhu in whatever variant during the day or even any twin engine job NF by the LW in 44-45 was suicidal.

back the the twin seater 262 with radar, it was needed, driving a single engine at night just with ground searchlights was not where the LW NJG's had to go they had to face it - they needed a back seater to drive home the Zahme Sau taktics with radar and that was the essence had jet portion of NJG 11 been able to go into 1946 this indeed is where it would of led. We know this from the pilots/crewmens mouths

 

[drgondog]

Bill

I have chatted many times with the historian of I./NJg 1 out of Venlo, the Uhu never could hit 400 mph plus there were so many technical entanglements besides the beast being way too big over all. A Mossie hunter A-6 was invisioned but even with it's stripped armor and armament it was felt there ws nothing gained in producing it. In regards to I./NJG 1 they approved and loved the Uhu in comparison to the Bf 110G-4 which was cramped and way too slow but yet still flew with success with the other 3 gruppen of NJG 1. another aspect quite often overlooked was the the missing component of most Uhu's on ops and that is lack of rearward radar a standard fit to the Ju 88G-6. As I said flying the Uhu in whatever variant during the day or even any twin engine job NF by the LW in 44-45 was suicidal.

back the the twin seater 262 with radar, it was needed, driving a single engine at night just with ground searchlights was not where the LW NJG's had to go they had to face it - they needed a back seater to drive home the Zahme Sau taktics with radar and that was the essence had jet portion of NJG 11 been able to go into 1946 this indeed is where it would of led. We know this from the pilots/crewmens mouths

Erich - I look to you for the NJG stuff and have always heard (other than Green) that the 219 never met expectations - even for early production.

I had never heard of the 262b-1a/u1 ever being in combat but certainly built for test before the war ended. Was there ever an operational flight against RAF?

 

[Erich]

Bill

without taking away from my future volume, yes the twin seater flew minimum of 5 flights, scoring 1 Mossie kill, A/C number was red 12 flown by H. Altner.

 

[Bill G.]

Erich:

I am still young enough to learn new information. You have such a great source of what happened.

My answer on the night fighter Me-262 was based on using it during the day time. I agree with you at night, you need the radar operator. No debate at all from me!

I know only what I have read on the He-219. The bulk of that is William Green's book Warplanes of the Third Reich. Your first hand data trumps the book.

I will still stand by my answer on what I would do if I had to use the He-219 during the day to attack B-17s and B-24s. I would want to use the best of the Uhu to it's greatest advantage. And not to fight the escorts on the escort's best terms.

Even though the Uhu couldn't top 400MPH, it would still be faster than the Bf-110, Me-410, and Ju-88. This would give the Uhu some advantages in both attacking the bombers and evading the escorts.

Still I wouldn't want to take the Uhu into an heavily escorted bomber stream. I would attack where the escorts were absent.

Bill G.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I would still take a Ju 88 over the He 219. Everything I have ever read (and Erich our signature night fighter expert will probably agree with me) is the He 219 was not that great of an aircraft.

 

[Vincenzo]

It's easy understand that Ju 88G it's more efficency weapons system for nighter fighter of He 219 but it's for me more hard understand that Ju 88G was simply a best fighter of He 219, can explain, give info on speed, turn rate, roll rate and so...
thank

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

It's easy understand that Ju 88G it's more efficency weapons system for nighter fighter of He 219 but it's for me more hard understand that Ju 88G was simply a best fighter of He 219, can explain, give info on speed, turn rate, roll rate and so...
thank

I do not think that those criteria (except maybe turn and roll rate) are defining factors for a night fighter.

If you wish to really get into depth in the night fighter discussion, we already have a thread about Night Fighters. The topic of He 219 vs. Ju 88 is discussed in depth in that thread.

 

[drgondog]

I do not think that those criteria (except maybe turn and roll rate) are defining factors for a night fighter.

If you wish to really get into depth in the night fighter discussion, we already have a thread about Night Fighters. The topic of He 219 vs. Ju 88 is discussed in depth in that thread.

It seems to me that the fundamental criteria for successful night fighter is good radar and operator to minimize what the pilot must manage, adequate speed and climb to get on station at the altitude loiter position, high closing speed on the bomber and firepower.

as long as the roll rate is better than the bomber that should be good enough.

For evasion from night fighter - then ability to detect presence and enough manueverability to get out of the radar scan seems to be adequate.

 

[KrazyKraut]

I do not think that those criteria (except maybe turn and roll rate) are defining factors for a night fighter.

If you wish to really get into depth in the night fighter discussion, we already have a thread about Night Fighters. The topic of He 219 vs. Ju 88 is discussed in depth in that thread.

I think what Vincenzo meant was that he understands that the Ju 88 is a better nightfighter than the He 219, but doesn't think that it is the better (heavy) fighter of the two per se.

And I would agree with him as many of the deficiencies of the He 219 would not have mattered had it been used as a heavy fighter and the Ju 88 was never all that successful in that role iirc. However I doubt it (the He 219) would've been markedly superior to a Me 410 and certainly would've had similar problems against escorts. Considering how moderately the EKdo 335 estimated the Do 335 to perform in that role in early '45, I don't think a somewhat/considerably slower plane would've fared better.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

It seems to me that the fundamental criteria for successful night fighter is good radar and operator to minimize what the pilot must manage, adequate speed and climb to get on station at the altitude loiter position, high closing speed on the bomber and firepower.

as long as the roll rate is better than the bomber that should be good enough.

For evasion from night fighter - then ability to detect presence and enough manueverability to get out of the radar scan seems to be adequate.

I agree.

As for the Uhu, I think it could have been developed into a good night fighter. My belief however is that was not quite that. Could have, should have, would have, did not...

 

[Colin1]

...high closing speed on the bomber...

would this be desirable at night?

 

[drgondog]

would this be desirable at night?

1.) The better closing speed, the less time for a tail gunner to pick up something odd in his field of view.
2.) More time in the air to go get another one
3.) Harder to hit by defensive fire

usually one of those would be a good thing.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

would this be desirable at night?

To get vectored to the bombers before they reach there target it would be, as well as what Bill listed.

 

[Vincenzo]

I think what Vincenzo meant was that he understands that the Ju 88 is a better nightfighter than the He 219, but doesn't think that it is the better (heavy) fighter of the two per se.

And I would agree with him as many of the deficiencies of the He 219 would not have mattered had it been used as a heavy fighter and the Ju 88 was never all that successful in that role iirc. However I doubt it (the He 219) would've been markedly superior to a Me 410 and certainly would've had similar problems against escorts. Considering how moderately the EKdo 335 estimated the Do 335 to perform in that role in early '45, I don't think a somewhat/considerably slower plane would've fared better.

You take my point.
and i think best lw heavy fighter it's Me 410 (obv, after the few Do 335)

 

[Erich]

well for NF the inclusion of twin 2cm Schräge Musik would be enough to flying under the bomber in such a way the heavy bomber tail gunner would not be able to pick out the nif. this was done repeatedly with some practice, in fact many NF aces preferred this method of attack and armament arrangement over the forward firing weapons

 

[Vincenzo]

I do not think that those criteria (except maybe turn and roll rate) are defining factors for a night fighter.

If you wish to really get into depth in the night fighter discussion, we already have a thread about Night Fighters. The topic of He 219 vs. Ju 88 is discussed in depth in that thread.

i reading the thread nothing on question he 219a vs ju 88g as fighter but a generic he 219 it's underpowered but it's power ratio it's not much different from that of ju 88