Best Bomber Killing Aircraft......

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Jan 31, 2009

Vincenzo said:
i reading the thread nothing on question he 219a vs ju 88g as fighter but a generic he 219 it's underpowered but it's power ratio it's not much different from that of ju 88

I will see if I can find the thread for you. This topic has been hashed out over and over.

Sweb · Feb 7, 2009

The Jug, hands down. High altitude performance, eight .050's with higher firing rates than any German cannon (less time-on-target), range, brutally tough and uncatchable in a dive.

In another role, these puppies in mass flights could have done more pin-point accuracy bombing of German targets than any carpet bombing of the day and saved countless lives on both sides. The pilots of Jugs at the reunions I attended made these comments with the look of disgust in their eyes for the SNAFUs at the top who under-utilized them. Lose 10 Jugs on a surgical strike that takes out the intended target and that's ten lives vs 20 in 2 B-17's. That and on their best days (clear, no winds) a B-17 group might manage target damage. Jugs would render a second mission unnecessary.

With the advent of the P-51 flying cover, Jugs could have done what all the heavies did in less time with less cost and loss of life.

Discuss.

lesofprimus · Feb 8, 2009

HUH????

The P-47 as a Bomber Killer??? WTF u smokin boy???

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Feb 8, 2009

Sweb said:
The Jug, hands down. High altitude performance, eight .050's with higher firing rates than any German cannon (less time-on-target), range, brutally tough and uncatchable in a dive.

You want to try and bring down bombers with .50 Cals...

There is a reason why the most successful bomber killers were armed with 20mm and 30mm cannons that used high explosive minengeschoss.

tomo pauk · Feb 8, 2009

How about the Jug with 4 VYa-23 cannons?

Valo300 · Feb 9, 2009

I would have to go with the F4U-1C armed with 4x 20mm guns.

imalko · Mar 18, 2009

In my opinion, the best bomber killing fighter aircrafts of WW2 were:

In battle of Britain - Hurricane

In defence of the Reich - Focke Wulf Fw 190A-8 Sturmjager

In the East - Messerschmitt Bf 109G with cannons in underwing gondolas (Fw 190 would be better here too but it was mainly used in ground attack role and only in small numbers in fighter role)

As for defence of Japan, I am not too familiar with Japanese aircrafts, but lets say Ki-61 Hien maybe?

tomo pauk · Mar 20, 2009

For Japan that would be Kawasaki Ki-45Toryu, the twin engined fighter, that could do the damage to B-17 B-24.
For attack at B-29 that would be the Nakajima Ki-84 Hayate, since all others lacked speed to catch Superfortreses at 30.000ft.

drgondog · Mar 20, 2009

tomo pauk said:
How about the Jug with 4 VYa-23 cannons?

How about the 51H with the same armament

tomo pauk · Mar 20, 2009

It would be an uberflieger, but the Jug was available years before.

Now, the engine mounted VYa-23 would transfer the Bf-109 into an bomber killer; even the Friedrich would rock.

lesofprimus · Mar 20, 2009

When I think of Bomber Killing Aircraft, I think of the Luftwaffe/Axis going after the hordes of Allied aircraft attacking Axis homelands....

And in that instance, theres nothing better than the A-8/R8 with the extra armor and 30mm Mk108's in the wings....

Clay_Allison · Mar 20, 2009

lesofprimus said:
When I think of Bomber Killing Aircraft, I think of the Luftwaffe/Axis going after the hordes of Allied aircraft attacking Axis homelands....

And in that instance, theres nothing better than the A-8/R8 with the extra armor and 30mm Mk108's in the wings....

I beg to differ on the 30mm, it had a very low velocity and rate of fire so that it limited a fighter's opportunity to engage the target accurately.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Mar 20, 2009

Clay_Allison said:
I beg to differ on the 30mm, it had a very low velocity and rate of fire so that it limited a fighter's opportunity to engage the target accurately.

How would it limit it? With 30mm Minengeschoss it would not really matter.

Colin1 · Mar 20, 2009

Clay_Allison said:
I beg to differ on the 30mm, it had a very low velocity and rate of fire so that it limited a fighter's opportunity to engage the target accurately.

Low velocity was the key to large-calibre cannon's success. It meant an explosive hit anywhere on the body of the target aircraft, even the 'soft-skinned' areas rather than relying on the shell bumping into something hard, like an engine block. I'm not sure if calling it a bomber-specific weapon is entirely accurate but it was good at what it did. You also didn't really require that much of an opportunity when you consider the bomber is

i. quite big and
ii. in formation, holding steady

in order to engage the target accurately, it isn't jinking around like another fighter.

Clay_Allison · Mar 20, 2009

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
How would it limit it? With 30mm Minengeschoss it would not really matter.

As the fighters got faster, especially the Me 262, their window of opportunity to engage the target was more and more limited, making it much harder to hit the aircraft on a pass with a slow shooting weapon that had a rainbow trajectory.

The prop planes so-armed had to get uncomfortably close to the bomber formation and their defensive armament to use it as well.

Colin1 · Mar 20, 2009

Clay_Allison said:
As the fighters got faster, especially the Me 262, their window of opportunity to engage the target was more and more limited, making it much harder to hit the aircraft on a pass with a slow shooting weapon that had a rainbow trajectory

Surely the better closing speed of the Me262 opened that window of opportunity, along with shorter lead time between thumping one bomber and moving on to the next?

Clay_Allison · Mar 20, 2009

Colin1 said:
Surely the better closing speed of the Me262 opened that window of opportunity, along with shorter lead time between thumping one bomber and moving on to the next?

The closing time was excellent, everything about the interception ability of the AC was incredible. I just think that if the Mauser Mauser MG 213 had been perfected and put into service they would have been better served by its' higher rate of fire than by the giant caliber of the 30mm.

lesofprimus · Mar 20, 2009

The Mk108 30mm Minen round was the most effective bomber killing weapon in the entire War.... Any other opinion is uneducated...

Clay_Allison · Mar 20, 2009

lesofprimus said:
The Mk108 30mm Minen round was the most effective bomber killing weapon in the entire War.... Any other opinion is uneducated...

My problem isn't so much the cartridge as the cannon. A longer barreled, gas operated gun with a high rate of fire would have improved the passes/kills ratio tremendously.

As it is, it reminds me of a more reliable version of the P-39's gun.

delcyros · Jun 16, 2009

What is wrong with the MK 108´s rate of fire?
650 rounds per minute is pretty neat for a waepon of this size (compare: 20mm Hispano MK II: 600 rpm). Late war (1945) versions had their rate increased to 850 rounds per minute, making it the fastest firing large calibre gun to see service in ww2.
High rates of fire in combination with low muzzle velocity also implies a small mean statistical distance between two successive shells and correspondingly a very high density of fire. That comes in handy while engaging aerial targets.

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