Best Bomber Killing Aircraft......

[Josh64]

FW-190A8 was by far the best!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

FW-190A8 was by far the best!

Why don't you tell us why you think it was the best. It might spark up conversation...

 

[Josh64]

Why don't you tell us why you think it was the best. It might spark up conversation...

Well it was the most heavily armed fighter of WWII and could easily stay with the bombers where the Me-262 could only make a pass and then have to turn around and come back. Also it was a rugged aircraft that could take alot of punishment. And in terms of numbers of Allied aircraft destroyed the Luftwaffe Sturmgruppen achieved incredible results.

 

[lesofprimus]

The 262 had a chance to run from those Mustangs, whereas them young boys flyin those up-armored A-8/R2 and R8's didnt stand much of a chance...

Any idea how many died just tryin to get to the bomber stream???

100's....

That bein said, I agree that the Fw190A-8 was the best at bomber killin, but strictly from a weapons carrying platform with correct fighter support...

 

[phatzo]

I would have to say the me 163 due to its ability to get to alt and the two massive Mk 108 30mm cannons, followed by the 262 and the Tank monster Ta 152. Seems 30mm was the way to bring them down. Just as a footnote the Bf 109K4 would have to be amongst them, with its good climb and speed not to mention the Mk 108 tater gun.

 

[Josh64]

The 262 had a chance to run from those Mustangs, whereas them young boys flyin those up-armored A-8/R2 and R8's didnt stand much of a chance...

Any idea how many died just tryin to get to the bomber stream???

100's....

That bein said, I agree that the Fw190A-8 was the best at bomber killin, but strictly from a weapons carrying platform with correct fighter support...

You're right about the vulnerabilty of the A8 to Mustangs. But I was just speaking from the "Bomber Killing" capability standpoint.
But from the Vulnerabilty category the Me-262 was a better airplane. Good Point!

 

[phatzo]

the 262 was extremely vulnerable to return fire as a single .303 in the engine would cause a flame out. Hence I mentioned the non jet interceptors, the Ta 152 and 109k4.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

the 262 was extremely vulnerable to return fire as a single .303 in the engine would cause a flame out. Hence I mentioned the non jet interceptors, the Ta 152 and 109k4.

A .303 well placed in ANY engine could cause its failure. Where in the 262's engine are you referring to? Compressor? Turbine? At the exhaust duct? For that matter you could say that about any turbine engine.

Return fire? Do you realize how hard it was to even hit a 262 from a turret or any gun position?

 

[Colin1]

Return fire? Do you realize how hard it was to even hit a 262 from a turret or any gun position?

Yep
the motorised gun positions couldn't traverse fast enough to bead an Me262, leaving the waist gunners whose field of vision would preclude them also unless the Me262 was coming at them from the beam. Anything aft to fore would be a blur, fore to aft I doubt they'd even know there was anything out there unless there was a crew alert from the front of the aircraft.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

the 262 was extremely vulnerable to return fire as a single .303 in the engine would cause a flame out. Hence I mentioned the non jet interceptors, the Ta 152 and 109k4.

That could technically happen to any aircraft engine...

 

[Guns'n'Props]

Er... I think that the 262's worst enemy were its own engines. Very short life around 75hours if I recall and liable to come apart if revved up too suddenly (especially by rookies).

Its 30mm guns were deadly - Mk108 no ? but had a low muzzle velocity so you probably had to get a bit closer than the usual 20mm. Results were spectacular if tragic. There a pic of a Spitfire fuselage after being hit by a 30mm shell in some post war test done on the ground. The structure frame etc 's completely gone at point of impact !!

 

[Guns'n'Props]

.... and if I was to name a contender for bomber killer it would be the Me110 night fighter variant.

Ok I'm not going to trawl thru' all those books again so some of you guys will nail me with some statistics but this plane flew steadily thru' most of the war and reaped a grim harvest of RAF night bombers almost up to the end. Ok there other Nachtjaeger like the Ju88, Do217 or even the He219 and 109s 190 in Wilde Sau etc but the 110 was the "old warhorse".

IMHO during the daytime 109s and 190s did reap their own carnage. However it was always harder. SOme author (Mike Spick ?) once compared a head on attack on a formation of B17s to "going over the top" in WW1. The main idea was hit it such that it will fall out of the safety of the wing's defensive firepower, then take it out with greater ease. Thus I'd say it was more of a "hunting pack" job rather than a complete kill as in the 110 where you stalked and fired (1 on1) usually with catastrophic results for the receiver.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Er... I think that the 262's worst enemy were its own engines. Very short life around 75hours if I recall and liable to come apart if revved up too suddenly (especially by rookies).

Try as little as 10 hours, but "revving" a 262's engine did nothing to make it come apart. If you accelerated the power lever too quickly you could make the engine flame out. Fuel controls of the period were very poor, both allied and German.

In essence, many of the pilots who flew the -262 were "rookies" when flying a turbine aircraft.

 

[Erich]

On yesterdays date in 1944 the US 445th bg was nearly destroyed by the 3 Sturmgruppen

todays date back in 1944 IV.Sturm/JG 3 ripped up 18 B-17's out of the 41st CBW. the 1st BD lost another 9-10 possibly to IV.STurm/JG 3 as well or another one of the SturmFW units - JG 300 in combination with JG 3's.

the SturmFw's made one pass from the rear through the heafvy bombers then turned around and were free to attack from all angles

US losses for the date are still confusing

 

[Guns'n'Props]

Try as little as 10 hours, but "revving" a 262's engine did nothing to make it come apart. If you accelerated the power lever too quickly you could make the engine flame out. Fuel controls of the period were very poor, both allied and German.

In essence, many of the pilots who flew the -262 were "rookies" when flying a turbine aircraft.

I once read some anecdote of Wing Cmdr Douglas Benham flying Spitfire XIVs late in the war. With a height advantage of 5000feet + he would try to bounce 262 with steep vertical dives - to get the speed - and then chase. Apparently the idea was that if the 262 pilot was a veteran he would keep his cool and advance the throttles gradually thus picking up speed but if he was green he'd panic, fling the throttles open and possibly try to turn into the attack. WC Benham claimed that making the 262 fly flat out for more than 10mins would cause the engines to fail and 41 Sqdr used this tactic successfully on 6 occasions. Admittedly I have never verified this but the fact that the quality of engine materials available to the Germans at the time was poor does support it

 

[Guns'n'Props]

On yesterdays date in 1944 the US 445th bg was nearly destroyed by the 3 Sturmgruppen

todays date back in 1944 IV.Sturm/JG 3 ripped up 18 B-17's out of the 41st CBW. the 1st BD lost another 9-10 possibly to IV.STurm/JG 3 as well or another one of the SturmFW units - JG 300 in combination with JG 3's.

the SturmFw's made one pass from the rear through the heafvy bombers then turned around and were free to attack from all angles

US losses for the date are still confusing

I really had an apparently mistaken impression that by late Sep'44 the P-51s had Jadgwaffe sorted out. Was this a singular incident or were such losses still occurring from time to time ? Is it possible that these units were the lowest or last in the bomber formation thus the most vulnerable ?

 

[Erich]

October 6 and 7th, November 2nd, 21st, 27th, 28th

several missions in December as well, January 14, 1945

will back up into September again, September 11, 12th 44; all of July since the 7th and the month of August

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I once read some anecdote of Wing Cmdr Douglas Benham flying Spitfire XIVs late in the war. With a height advantage of 5000feet + he would try to bounce 262 with steep vertical dives - to get the speed - and then chase. Apparently the idea was that if the 262 pilot was a veteran he would keep his cool and advance the throttles gradually thus picking up speed but if he was green he'd panic, fling the throttles open and possibly try to turn into the attack. WC Benham claimed that making the 262 fly flat out for more than 10mins would cause the engines to fail and 41 Sqdr used this tactic successfully on 6 occasions. Admittedly I have never verified this but the fact that the quality of engine materials available to the Germans at the time was poor does support it

There's many problems with that claim...

The situation mentioned could be applied to any aircraft, not just the 262. Its a matter of seen and be seen. If you're diving on an opponent from 5000' above you could be in a bi-plane and have the advantage. As far as Benham's 10 minute claim, not true on the Jumo and for that manner just about any turbine engine. When flying the a turbine engine you are operating at RPMs in the high 80 and low 90%. Spooling up to full power happened a lot quicker than if you were at flight idle and then suddenly slamming the power levers to 100%. You never flew an early jet at flight idle unless you has some other issues.

And again for 10 minutes? If Benham was chasing a 262 for 10 minutes at WEP, I think he too would have some engine issues as well even if flying a Griffon powered Spit. WW2 dogfights rarely lasted more than a very few minutes if not sooner.

As long as turbine temps are kept within parameters you could run a turbine engine at 100% all day. The problems with the early Jumos was the materials used in the turbine section and the lack of nickel steels which were compensated by other means.

BTW Recip aircraft have throttles, jets have power levers.

 

[Guns'n'Props]

Thanks for the info Flyboyj. I had no idea that turbines are flown at 80%+ so this rules out the "panic the pilot" tactic. This implies that unless you got really lucky the only way you could take out a 262 was (in fact) at take-off or landing.

It would be interesting to check on 41 Squadron's claims for 262s in '45. Maybe they came across a spate of 262's with Jumos past their "best before date". It is also possible that Benham was just describing a singular case that was incorrectly quoted or recorded.

Yes I agree that most dogfights were over in a very short time - unlike the ones on my PC flight simulators.

 

[Civettone]

Oh no it's perfectly possible to catch a Me 262 while diving down and thereby achieving higher speeds. There are several documented kills done in that fashion. The problem Flyboyj had with that story was more about the stuff on the 10 minute chase. That doesn't make sense. Not only because of the Jumo 004 being able to take those rpms. But also because the momentary speed advantage would not last 10 minutes.

Other accounts claim that Mustang pilots gave chase to a Me 262 after gaining speed after diving down on the Me 262. They would not be able to catch up but would wait for the (inexperienced) Me 262 pilot to turn after which they would go for the kill. That was another lesson for Me 262 pilots: don't turn violently but turn gently while keeping your main weapon: speed ! (Strangily enough this was also the main strength of the Mustang.)

Kris