Best Bomber of WW2 (continued)

cheddar cheese · May 17, 2005

MP-Willow said:
Well this has been a great read! Sorry I have been away. The Ju-88 was used everywhere and if they could hve got the 288 organized more there might have been hope. Also the He-111 had more potantial and I think could have been developed into a 4 engine heavy.

16KJV11: You said that raide on New York would have been posible with in-flight refueling and some carriers for fighter cover. That would have been an incredible capital cost and the Graft Zeplin was scrapped because the Navy was focused on U-boats. Also a few German Carriers would have drawn a lot of American carriers say a few Large fleet carriers that would have almost ouble the compliment of aircraft and those would be a lot better.

The Do-317 looked damn promising too. 8)

BombTaxi · May 17, 2005

I think there are several factors affecting the possibility of an LW raid on NY.

Firstly, it simply was not within the doctrine and operational mentality of OKL to launch such a raid. The LW was a close support arm - even it's heaviest bombers were meant to operate in support of a Blitzkreig war. The LW didnt try to destroy industrial infrastructure like the 8th AF; instead, it tried interdict material operating in the field. Hence the importance of a/c like the Stuka and Ju88, which were capable of delivering relatively small warloads against point targets. By slashing communications arteries and destroying specific enemy forces in the field, the LW tried to sidestep the issue of destroying the factories making war materiel.

Secondly, and as a result of the previous point, the LW, RLM and German aircraft manufacturers never put any serious effort into developing a capable strategic bomber. As in most things, such research works on a basis of supply and demand. If there is a real demand for a given technology, it can be developed fairly quickly and simply - for example, radar, sonar, or even the RAF's heavy night bombers. All of these technologies were evolved over relatively short timescales to meet the urgent demands of a specific threat environment. I believe that had there been a real demand for a strike capability against the US mainland by early 1943 (at the very latest), programs such as the AmerikaBomber and possibly the nuclear weapon systems to accompany them, could have been developed in time to seriously affect the course of the war. But by the time such a capability would have been really useful, (say, mid-1944), the aero industry was totally committed to building airframes and weapon systems that could be used to stem the combined bomber offensive and re-establish air superiority on the Eastern Front as a prelude to a possible Wehrmacht counter-offensive...in short, they had to build fighters, and bigger guns to attach to them. Thus, any chance of an intercontinental weapon system being developed was lost forever.

Of course, this is a somewhat speculatory account, but dealing with "what-ifs" is always that way

And for my money, the best Axis bomber was the Ju88. Tough, fast and extremely versatile. It was the only LW bomber that showed true developmental flexibility - the others simply lapsed into obsolescence.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · May 19, 2005

Well as for the "Amerika Bomber" as you are all talking about. There was an ongoing project that included the Junker Ju-390, Me-264, and Fw-300.

There are unconfirmed reports that the Ju-390 made a test flight to within sight of the East Coast of the United States. I too dont believe that such a raid would have succeeded with out fighter cover (which was not going to happen). But one thing to think about is the Element of Surprise? Did the United States really think it was going to get hit? They may have thought safe eneogh not to even worry about it. This is all theoretical though and more then likley the easiest way for the Germans to hit New York would have been with rocket firing U-Boots.

Anyway info:

Amerika Bomber

The Amerika Bomber project was an initiative of the German Air Ministry to obtain a long-range bomber aircraft for the Luftwaffe that would be capable of striking the continental United States from Germany. Requests for designs were made to the major German aircraft manufacturers early in World War II, long before the US had entered the war.

The most promising proposals were based on conventional principles of aircraft design and would have yielded aircraft very similar in configuration and capability to the Allied heavy bombers of the day. These included the Messerschmitt Me 264 (an all-new design), the Focke-Wulf Fw 300 (based on the existing Fw 200), and the Junkers Ju 390 (based on the Ju 290). Prototypes of the Me 264 were built, but it was the Ju 390 that was selected for production. Only two prototypes were constructed before the programme was abandoned, although it is widely claimed (and widely disputed) that the second prototype made a trans-Atlantic flight to within 20km (12 miles) of the US coast in early 1944.

Other proposals were far more exotic jet- and rocket-powered designs. Perhaps the best-known of these today is Eugen Sänger's Silbervogel ("Silverbird") sub-orbital bomber. Slightly more conventional, the Horten brothers designed the Horten Ho XVIII, a flying wing powered by six turbojets based on experiences with their existing Ho X design. The Arado company also suggested a six-jet flying wing design, the Arado E.555. All of these projects were deemed too expensive and ambitious and were abandoned, although the British Air Ministry considered development of the Ho XVIII for an airliner after the war, and the theoretical groundwork done on the Silbervogel would prove seminal to lifting body designs of the space age.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerika_Bomber

Messerschmitt Me-264

The Messerschmitt Me 264 Amerika (America) was a long-range strategic bomber aircraft developed during World War II for the Luftwaffe under the Reichsluftfahrtministerium's "Amerika Bomber" programme.

The bomber was to be capable of flying from Germany to New York City and back. One prototype was made but production was abandoned to allow Messerschmitt to concentrate on fighter production and because the Junkers Ju 390 had been selected in its place for the Amerika Bomber.

The Me 264 had four 1,700 hp (1.3 MW) BMW 801G engines and very little armor and guns in the interest of increasing fuel capacity. The heavy bomber would have had a crew of 5-6 and was nearly 21 metres long.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_264

Crew:
Length: 20.9 m (68 ft 7 in)
Wingspan: 43.0 m (141 ft)
Height: 4.3 m (14 ft)
Wing area: 127.8 m² (1,376 ft²)
Empty: 21,150 kg (46,620 lb)
Loaded: 23,000 kg (50,000 lb)
Maximum takeoff: 56,000 kg (123,000 lb)
Powerplant: 4× BMW 801G/H, 1,272 kW (1,730 hp) each

Maximum speed: 560 km/h (350 mph)
Range: 14,900 km (9,260 miles)
Service ceiling: 8,000 m (26,000 ft)
Rate of climb: 120 m/min (390 ft/min)
Wing loading: 180 kg/m² (36 lb/ft²)
Power/mass: 0.23 kW/kg (0.14 hp/lb)

4× 13 mm (0.51 in) MG 131 machine guns
2× 20 mm (0.79 in) MG 151 cannon
2,000 kg (4,400 lb) of bombs

Junkers Ju-390

The Junkers Ju 390 was a long-range derivative of the Junkers Ju 290 and was intended to be used as a heavy transport, maritime patrol aircraft, and bomber. It was a design selected for the abortive Amerika Bomber project.

Two prototypes were created by inserting an extra pair of inner wing segments into the wings of basic Ju 290 airframes and adding new sections to "stretch" the fuselages. The resulting giant first flew on October 20, 1943 and performed well, resulting in an order for 26 such aircraft, to be designated Ju 390A-1. None of these were actually built by the time that the project was cancelled (along with Ju 290 production) in mid 1944. The maritime patrol version and bomber were to be designated Ju 390B and Ju 390C respectively. It was suggested that the bomber could have carried the Messerschmitt Me 328 parasite fighter for self-defence. Some test flights are believed to have been performed by Ju-390 aircraft with the anti-shipping Fritz-X guided smart-bomb.

Disputed New York flight in 1944

There is a heavily disputed claim that in January 1944, a Ju-390 prototype made a trans-atlantic flight from Mont-de-Marsan (near Bordeaux) to some 20 km (12 miles) of the coast of the United States and back. Critics claim FAGr.5 (Fernaufsklarungsgruppe 5) never flew such a flight. Supporters say the only link between FAGr.5 and the New York flight is the common use of an airfield at Mont-de-Marsan and the veracity of the New York flight is neither proved nor disproved by a lack of unit records for such a flight. Indeed the flight may have had nothing whatsoever to do with FAGr.5 operations.

Whilst the Ju-390's 32-hour endurance would have certainly made such a crossing theoretically possible, there is a lack of evidence to support the claim. Aviation historian Horst Zoeller claims the flight was recorded in Junkers company records.

Critics have also pointed to the vagueness of the aircraft's alleged position and even the date of what would have been a milestone flight. The best known (and maybe earliest publication) of the claim in English was in William Green's Warplanes of the Third Reich in 1970, where he wrote that the Ju 390 flew to "a point some 12 miles from the US coast, north of New York". Critics say the vagueness of detail and lack of corroborating evidence are hallmarks of an urban legend.

Critics believe that the aircraft would have had to overfly parts of the Massachusetts coast in order to fix their location, and point out the likelihood of the aircraft being spotted by observers and/or radar, which it was not. If New York state were meant, this would have put the aircraft closer to Boston. Critics ask why this city wasn't referred to for fixing the position of the claim. Finally, it is questioned how the aircrew would have been able to fix their position so accurately anyway.

Supporters argue that a Ju-390 crew could have obtained a highly accurate fix from public broadcast radio stations. Also that a Ju-390 would not have needed to overfly Massachusetts at all. They say there was no reason why New York City could not have been approached purely from the sea.

Supporters also note that the mission was designed to deliver a single bomb to New York and that such a bomb could only have been the atomic weapon under development. Japan and Germany at the time were using the "Harteck Process" of gaseous uranium centrifuges. Germany in 1944 was shipping both uranium ores and centrifuges to Japan by U-boat.

Supporters of the New York flight say of course the mission was kept secret so as not to tip off the US Government to provide better air defences. It was an ultra top secret test flight for the delivery of an atomic bomb.

Corroboration is gleened from the so-called Silbervogel sub-orbital bomber designed to attack New York from space with only a single bomb. Only one type of bomb was worth all the time and expense involved. Supporters say a mission so secret would never have found its way into FAGr.5 logbooks.

Supporters note the top secret unit, II/KG200 also flew the Ju-390 as did Junkers company test pilots in Czechoslovakia.

Following the war, Hitler's armaments minister Albert Speer also recounted to author James P O'Donnell that a Ju-390 aircraft flown by Junkers test pilots flew a polar route to Japan in 1944.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_390

Role Transport
Crew 8
First Flight October 20, 1943
Entered Service 1943
Manufacturer Junkers

Length 34.20 m 112 ft 2 in
Wingspan 50.30 m 165 ft 1 in
Height 6.89 m 22 ft 7 in
Wing area 254 m² 2,733 ft²

Empty 39,500 kg 86,900 lb
Loaded 53,112 kg 116,846 lb
Maximum takeoff 75,500 kg 166,100 lb

Engines 6x BMW 801E
Power 8,818 kW 11,820 hp

Maximum speed 505 km/h 314 mph
Range 9,700 km 6,027 miles
Service ceiling 6,000 m 19,680 ft
Rate of climb
Wing loading 209 kg/m² 43 lb/ft²
Power/Mass 0.17 kW/kg 0.10 hp/lb

2x 20 mm MG 151/20 cannons in dorsal turrets
1 x 20 mm MG 151/20 in tail
2x 13 mm MG 131 machine guns at waist
2x 13 mm MG 131 in gondola

delcyros · May 19, 2005

Some points in bomb taxis´post are not without good reasons. He is right about the intentions of the Luftwaffe as a short range bomberfleet. Without doubt that was a key factor in the Blitzkrieg conception (with General Wever´s heavy bomber fleet consisting of Do-19 and Ju-89 the Luftwaffe could have succeeded against Britain but would fail against France in 1940) and the reason for favouring the cheaper twin engined bombers. However, from mid 1943 on the Luftwaffe tried to carry out a strategic bombing campaign against the Soviet Union (..and found that it has not the right planes to do so, resulting in a demand for a heavy bomber..). The last efforts in this way would have been KG-200 Mistel attacks against Gorki and Moscow in 1945 (which have been postponed in order to destroy the River-Oder bridges). The strategic bomber campiagn was somehow unsuited for the Luftwaffe in general, right. However your timeframes are false, bomb taxi, since you don´t need one and a half year to get a heavy bomber design from the drawing boards to operational use. This is impossible. It took almost seven years in case of the B-17 or B-36 (partly under peacetime conditions) and no less than four years in case of the B-24, B-29, He-177 or Lancaster! The main problem for a german heavy bomber was the avaiability of advanced, powerful engines. This postponed the promising Ju-288 or Do-317 (which are indeed medium bombers with a comparably high payload). The He-177 B is not that a bad plane as I feel it is shown here. While it is true that it was prone to flame, most engine problems have been fixed in mid 1944 and the plane is really aweful from this date onwards. Also if you look to it´s losses than you find out that most losses in a single dutie come from desperate (ordered by Göring..)LOW LEVEL tank hunting missions in June 1944 on the eastern front, where KG 1 lost 9 out of 40 He-177. These kind of missions is obviously unsuited to such a big plane. During the unsuccesful Baby Blitz raids against London the He-177 had the lowest loss ratio of all involved planes, thanks to it´s speed and excellent protection. It´s records in Russia are very well, also. It lost 2(one by Flak, another due to damage inflicted by crash landing) out of 90 planes in a single medium range attack against Velikije Luki. The reason why the He-177 units have been grounded in fall of 1944 was not because it was a bad plane but because it had a terribly high fuel consumption. A single attack in group strenght against a target in medium range needed 480 tons of high grade fuel, during the bad days of june and jule 1944(...at the peak of the allied oil bombing campaign...) this is a days fuel production. Supporting a regularly operating Geschwader and training for new crews in just a single month would take nearly all high grade fuel produced in june or jule 1944. This implies that it was simply not possible for the Luftwaffe to field further He-177 units. (it´s also the reason why they shifted to jet planes, since they run on more avaiable low grade fuel, also)

DerAdlerIstGelandet · May 19, 2005

I believe the main reason as you stated that they did not have Heavy Bombers at first was the fact that it was not part of there strategy at the beginning of the war. Also you have to take into account the fact that the German Bombers He-111 and Do-17 were originally desquised and used as Lufthansa transports before the war. It would have been hard to build a plane like a B-17, B-24, and Lancaster and disquise it as a commercial airliner.

delcyros · May 19, 2005

That´s right, Adler, but both, Ju-89 and Do-19 have been flown prior to outbreak of ww2(1936 Do-19V1 and 1937 Ju-89V1)Both planes are capable to do the same job of a B-17. They suffered in the mid 30´s from engines with low performances (as did theBf-109), but with concrete improvements both planes could be ready in 1940 at a larger scale for operational use. With more advanced engines they could carry a decent bombload over a decent range at decent altitude and medium speed. The defense gunnery was also excellent. However, those planes would have been too expansive for the quickly growing Luftwaffe....

Glider · May 19, 2005

Delcryos has a number of good points in his posting. I believe the He177 to have been a missed oppertunity and considering the amount of interference from on high, its a credit that it did what it could do. Apart from the engines which could have been solved with four individual engines. The airframe also weighed more than it would have done due to the requirement to give it a dive bombing role. I agree that it was more of a steep glide bomb but the extra strength and resulting weight couldn't have helped.
If Germany had been able to field 200 bomber raids in late 1943 then the war could have turned out very differently. After their intial evacuation Russia concentrated its manufacturing into large almost self contained towns a long way behind the lines. These were strategic targets the USA and UK heavy bomber fleets could only dream of. Had the Germans been able to launch raids on these centers, then the effect on Russian Production could have been significant. Russian fighters were generally low -medium altitude and anti aircraft guns ineffective as radar was almost unheard of so losses were likely to be low.

Bombing the USA would have been usless. It might have worked once with surprise but no more than that and the resources required way beyond what was available. The Russians were wide open and if the professionals had been allowed to get on with it, then the 177 would have been a better plane and almost certainly earlier into service.

delcyros · May 20, 2005

As long as they had fuel, KG 1 flew succesful He-177 strikes at medium distance against railway knots in Russia.
The problem with Russia is pointed out above by yourself. It´s to big. Even He-177 could not hope to strike targets in central Sibiria and hope to return (or make it to japanese lines, it´s a comparable distance). And there a many targets to hit, I doubt that Stalin would not try to relocate them even further to the east. Best strategy in my mind would be to cutt the SU off from supply routes (take Murmansk for example) and seize the important oil fields at Baku. Both would have a great effect on the ability of the Soviets to feed them all and to operate armor divisions in a huge scale.
No geman plane was able to strike deep within sibiria, nor to attack the US coast on a larger scale. It wouldn´t have been worthy the manpower and ressources, I believe.

FLYBOYJ · May 20, 2005

Don't forget lack of fighter escort, I think that would of made theses raids disastrous!

delcyros · May 20, 2005

Indeed. Even with the poor soviet high altitude flak and those very few planes able to operate properly in high altitudes in mind, the soviets could easily upgrade an engine for these tasks or refit a known design. Not to speak of the US forces, which already can deal with such a thread.

plan_D · May 20, 2005

How come the Luftwaffe didn't use the B-17s they had? I mean, they had loads! A lot of them were airworthy too.

cheddar cheese · May 20, 2005

Depends when they had them. If its the later half of the war there wouldnt be much point.

plan_D · May 20, 2005

Of course it'd be the later part of the war! They weren't going to have 'em in '39.

Anyway, it wouldn't have been pointless against the Soviet Union. Just do what the FAF did and make the SU think it's U.S B-17s coming in from a shuttle-bombing.
Then a little diversion to their factories and flatten them. Or flatten the oil plants in Caucasus.

MP-Willow · May 20, 2005

Flayboyj> the fighter cover in the America bomber raid was said to be from German carriers but that would never happen as the US Libs, and fleet air arms would sniff them out then stuff them out.

As for the 177 the design team tried everything they could to get it better and worked on their own for the 277, but the comand failed to see it. The B-17s and other captured bombers could be used, but they suck a lot of fuel and manhours that could be used eltsehere and if I am right the bombers were not in Europe in numbers until spring 1943?

One last bit, I like the Idea of useing the He-177 to try and cut off Russian supply and rail lines. That would be the best way to try to control and strangle Russian production. The shutle bombing thing sounds interesting.

evangilder · May 20, 2005

The Germans captured the first B-17 in December of 1942. they did use them for a number of different missions.

trackend · May 20, 2005

Im not an expert but as the US took very few measure to protect their east coast mechantile fleet from U-boat attack until they had suffered significant losses and even then black outs of coastel towns never took place. Do any of you guys think fighter escort would have been needed for a suprise raid on say NY.

FLYBOYJ · May 20, 2005

trackend said:
Im not an expert but as the US took very few measure to protect their east coast mechantile fleet from U-boat attack until they had suffered significant losses and even then black outs of coastel towns never took place. Do any of you guys think fighter escort would have been needed for a suprise raid on say NY.

I would guess not for a surprise raid (similar to the Doolittle Raid) but anything more serious would of required some type of escort. As MP pointed out, the only place they could of come from was aircraft carriers, and that attempt would of been disastrous.

evangilder · May 20, 2005

The first raid would have been a surprise, but I doubt subsequent raids would have been successful.

trackend · May 20, 2005

Good point Fly I wonder if the V3 was a more viable possibility

FLYBOYJ · May 20, 2005

trackend said:
Good point Fly I wonder if the V3 was a more viable possibility

I would say so!

Best Bomber of WW2 (continued)

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