Best Bomber of WW2 (continued)

[FLYBOYJ]

Exactly. That´s why the B-29 can be taken as the best, which saw service.
But if we are talking about generations, the B-29 had it´s advent in the time of the appearence of the first jets. A very uncomfortable company...

Yep - and the clash of those generations met over Korea. Fast, small, relatively short range jets meeting highly advanced large reciprocating turbo-boosted bombers with radar and other advanced systems. Classic!

 

[plan_D]

German designed airframes with British engines and Korean pilots (and Russians...they'll still deny it) against an All-American big bastard! The MiG-15 made the B-29 obselete very quickly but the old bird didn't go down without a fight in a lot of cases.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Yep, I think the 29 gunners got over 20 mig kills ( I got the number posted somewhere on here).

My uncle was a B-29 radio operator in Korea. He crashed in Japan after a mission, got shot up by Migs! Cracked his face on the radio panel.

 

[plan_D]

Four 30mm cannons never did any bomber any good. I find it remarkable though that the F-86 and MiG-15 were so close in comparison yet people, to this day, claim the F-86 was far-far superior.

For anyone that wants to jump in with "The F-86 destroyed over 786 MiG-15s..." No it didn't! I've had more people say that to me than "Good morning"

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I could tell you I worked on both of them, privately owned here in the states. The 86 was better built, more complex and just plan more advanced. The 15 was simple and easy to operate. The guy that owned them said the 15 accelerated quicker but wasn't as stable and was a b*tch to land. The 86 was generally faster and more stable, The MiG he owned was Chinese built....

As far as Korean war MiG kills, I think the 86 still mauled the MiG, but I think the numbers were a lot less. The Russians who were there fought well as we are now finding out. I think the touted 10 to 1 or 14 to 1 kill ratio was more like 4 to 1, and that's including Korean and Chinese pilots!

 

[plan_D]

Many websites state that 786 MiG-15s were shot down by F-86s during the Korean conflict. In fact, the Korean air force lost just over 400 aircraft altogether and not all were MiG-15s.

The F-86 had the better record out of the two but the MiG-15 was a bomber destroyer, and did it's job well. The U.S pilots and tactics were superior to that of the Korean (and Russian) pilots.

We always knew there were Russian pilots flying. They were told not to speak Russian while on the inter-com and to kill themselves if shot down. They caught some Russians on the ground and intercepted radio transmissions in Russian...

...we knew.

 

[plan_D]

Here is a comparison between the two (F-86A-5 Vs. MiG-15);

The MiG could outclimb the Sabre at all altitudes, although the latter was marginally faster in level flight. The MiG's greater operational ceiling gave it an initial advantage in combat, yet although it had a greater initial acceleration in a dive, the heavier Sabre had the advantage in a sustained dive. The MiG's zoom climb and tight turning characteristics (except at high speeds) were valuable, but the fighter's good points were counterbalanced by such undesirable features as poor control at high speeds, a low rate of roll and directional instability at high altitudes. Its heavy armament (two 23mm and one 37mm cannon) was better suited to bomber interception than to fighter-vs-fighter combat; but the Sabre's six 0.5 cal MGs, while having a faster rater of fire, lacked the range and hitting power necessary for jet combat. On the plus side, the Sabre had the marvelous K14 radar gun-sight, which gave enormous assistance to our pilots, particularly in derivative movement information of enemy aircraft, which gave invaluable lead-time in dog-fights.

There were 900 claimed victories, 792 MiG-15s, by the U.S during Korea. Post-war documentation from both sides shows that only 379 Korean aircraft were shot down, not all MiG-15s and not all by F-86s. 78 Sabres were lost.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Great stuff D! This is my fav subject! Love both aircraft, although I would of loved to be flying an F-86 in Mig Alley, 1953!

 

[plan_D]

I've read a few articles about how the F-86 overcame the MiG-15s, in some ways, technical advantage. They would fly into MiG-Alley in 5 minute intervals, four aircraft per flight at varying altitudes from 22,000 feet to 35,000 feet. The MiGs would bounce the first flight only to be pounced on by the flight behind, if other MiGs were close by they'd bounce the second flight only to be pounced by the third flight. And so on and so forth, so the MiGs would throw away their initial height advantage and suffer a terrific counter-attack from the Sabres.

There were normally four flights of four aircraft, cruising at a usual Mach 0.87.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I've read a few articles about how the F-86 overcame the MiG-15s, in some ways, technical advantage. They would fly into MiG-Alley in 5 minute intervals, four aircraft per flight at varying altitudes from 22,000 feet to 35,000 feet. The MiGs would bounce the first flight only to be pounced on by the flight behind, if other MiGs were close by they'd bounce the second flight only to be pounced by the third flight. And so on and so forth, so the MiGs would throw away their initial height advantage and suffer a terrific counter-attack from the Sabres.

There were normally four flights of four aircraft, cruising at a usual Mach 0.87.

Yes, also head that even with superior numbers, the Migs would get suckered into this a lot. The Mig performed better at certain higher altitudes than the 86, so the key was to bring them lower and blast them before they ran to the Yalu.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

and i couldn't give a s**t about what thye B-29 could or could not carry, fact is, she never carried and dropped two tallboys in combat it WWII,.....

Your right but tell me if the Lancaster dropped the only 2 atom bombs to be dropped in combat? Let me think......Nope it was a B-29!!! 8)

Sorry Lanc but you can not even compare your beloved Lancaster to the B-29. As stated 2 different generations and the 29 completely outlcassed the Lancaster. The Lancaster was great thought. I will give you that.

Sorry I know this was late but I had to throw this in.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

MY GOD MAN!!!! i've admitted the B-29 was a better bomber!! but also remember the lanc achieved more, was the best in Europe and the best by night.......

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Im just ruffling your feathers man. You know that.

I will give you the best in Europe and the best at night. But it is not hard to be the best at Europe when you are bombing at night and the Liberators are bombing at day. LOL

Still just ruffeling your feathers.

 

[trackend]

Tell me lanc whats your honest opinion of the Avro Lancaster do you like it

A. Passionately with a slight hint of sexual excitement.

B. Aloofly in a distant yet loving way. or

C. You actually prefer the Vickers Vimey but don't like being too retro


Please answer A.B.C. or tell me to Bog Off. thankyou

 

[cheddar cheese]

I bet its C

 

[delcyros]

The Lancaster was the best over Europe (any airforce) and the B-29 the best over the pacific, technically the best of both.
Just a question: Is the XB-15 or XB-19 discussed yet? They do sound very promising.

 

[cheddar cheese]

Nope, not heard of these projects? Tell more!

 

[evangilder]

The XB-15 was the predecessor to the B-17. It was bigger than the B-17.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The Lancaster was the best over Europe (any airforce) and the B-29 the best over the pacific, technically the best of both.
Just a question: Is the XB-15 or XB-19 discussed yet? They do sound very promising.

Both layed the groundwork for lots of technology, but had they been sent over Europe they would of been dead meat!

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

Tell me lanc whats your honest opinion of the Avro Lancaster do you like it

A. Passionately with a slight hint of sexual excitement.

B. Aloofly in a distant yet loving way. or

C. You actually prefer the Vickers Vimey but don't like being too retro


Please answer A.B.C. or tell me to Bog Off. thankyou

none of these actually...........