Best Dogfighter Poll Revisited...

[Lightning Guy]

I agree. The Ki-84 is my favorite of the Japanese fighters.

 

[Anonymous]

No it wasn't. The Spitfire was a better dogfighter than the Mustang. The Mustang had a range advantage over the Spitfire, that's all.

That is not true. The P-51 was, in most meaningful respects, faster than the Spitfire. It was more manuverable at very high speeds than the Spitfire. It had a better zoom climb than the Spitfire. It was (a little) tougher than the Spitfire. It was a better gunplatform than the Spitfire. And it had better visability than the Spitfire.

The Spitfire wins in acceleration, climb rate, and medium and low speed manuverability.

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[Anonymous]

I am a little surprised that the Dora 9 is doing so well in the polls with so few units really equipped with the bird.

The poll didn't ask about numbers produced. As I recall something around 1500 were produced but only a little more than half were deployed.

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[Anonymous]

The Ki-84 looks a lot better than the P-47. It is a much smaller aircraft and lacks the "fat gut" of the P-47.

And it flew alot better too.....

Hmmm....

...
Perdomo described what happened in his combat report:

I pushed the throttle into water injection with the prop pitch at about 2,700 rpm. As I gained on the Oscars, I placed my gyro sight on the last one and adjusted the sight diamonds on his wings. At this time the Oscars were flying a very loose vee. When I closed into firing range I gave him a burst and saw my bullets converge on his nose and cockpit. Something exploded in his engine and fire broke out. I was still shooting as he fell to the right.

After gaining his first kill, Perdomo went after the second Oscar:

I lined him up immediately on the second ship and began firing at about 30 degrees. I shot at this Oscar until parts flew off and fire broke out on the bottom cowling of his engine. I ceased firing when he rolled over slowly and dove straight into the ground and exploded.

He closed on the third Oscar:

I caught him in my fixed sight and led him as much as I could, firing all the way. He continued his spiral- turn about 180 degree until he was about 100 ft off the ground. Then he hit a high speed stall, because I saw his aircraft shudder, and it snapped him still tighter to the left and into the ground where he exploded like an oversized napalm bomb.

After shooting down the third Oscar, he headed back to town, where he saw the fire from his first kill. Almost simultaneously he spotted a parachute descending and identified the green-clad man below it as a Japanese pilot. He put his sights on him and passed by, rocking his wings. Perdomo them climbed to look for any other P-47's and encountered two Willow biplane trainers (Yokosuka Type 93 Intermediate Trainer K5Y) flying in formation. He after them and the Willows separated as Perdomo reported:

I picked the closet to me and started shooting. Flames broke out almost immediately. To slow my ship I crossed my controls and skidded. Them I shot more at him. This time I must have hit the pilot because the ship went into a spiral to the right and straight into the ground about 300 feet below.

After seeing the Willow explode. He tried to locate the other one, but it had escaped. He started to climb above the clouds, when three or four Oscars broke out above him and to the right. He turned into them and pointed his nose down, hoping they had not seen him. But at the last moment they pushed down on him. He shot under them, poured water injection on, and turned into the clouds. The Oscars made a half-hearted turn, but by them Perdomo was above and behind:

As I came in on these Oscars three of them turned to the left and one turned right I followed this single one and used my gyro sight. His only evasive maneuvers were turns. I shot at him in bursts until he flamed. He exploded when I pulled alongside because of the excessive speed. The mass of flames went into the ground.

He headed back to the city and the rest of the group. Over the airfield he saw two of the group's P-47's,chasing an Oscar that turned on the P-47's. Perdomo dived on the Oscar, engaging it shooting until his ammo ran out. The Oscar turned on him, as he mentions in his report:

I saw a yellow-tailed P-47 out of the corner of my right eye and yelled him to shoot the Oscar off my tail………The P-47 I saw turned on the Oscar and began firing. He missed with the first burst, but clobbered him with the second. I saw the Oscar go straight in and explode. I believe the pilot of the P-47 to be Lt. Harry Steinshover.

This is confirmed in 2nd Lt. Harry M. Steinshover combat narrative. He had shot-down an Oscar, at the beginning of the fight, as he reported. After getting the first Oscar the following took place:

I pulled off the target and climbed to 3,000 ft to join my element leader. He (Perdomo) sighted an Oscar about 1,000 ft below us and dived for him. He opened up but ran out of ammunition. His speed carried him under the enemy plane. The Oscar started a turn to the left and my element leader broke right. The Oscar immediately made a sharp turn to the right and opened fire. I close to 1,000 ft and opened fire and the enemy plane started smoking. I fired at him all the way to the ground and he exploded.

By 1345 hours the 507th started the return to Ie Shima with elements landing about 1755 hours, an 8 hour, and 18 minute mission. In total the 507th claimed 20 enemy aircraft plus 2 probables and one Betty bomber on the ground, for the loss of one P-47N of the 464th flown by a pilot who had claimed 2 Oscars during the fight. He was shot-down and bailed out over the sea. He was picked up by the Japanese, and help prisioner at Keijo until the end of the war.

Major Jarman recalled how Perdomo's claims were confirmed:

When we landed back at Ie Shima Perdomo shyly stated that he had destroyed five, including one biplane trainer type. Upon developing the gun camera film it was clearly proven that he had actually destroyed five aircraft including the biplane which no else had even seen.

FRANKS NOT OSCARS

It is interesting to note that the type of enemy fighters engaged by the 507th were actually the Nakajima Ki-84 Hayate code named Frank from the Japanese Army Air Force's 22ndand 85thSentais. Both Units had been assigned to Kimpo airfield since May 1945.

The 85th Hiko Sentai had been formed since March 1941, and as a veteran unit had seen action in Manchuria and China, claiming the destruction of some 282 enemy aircraft for the loss of 73 pilots. The unit commander was Capt. Morio Nakamura, who had held the post since December 1944.

The 22nd Hiko Sentai was created in March 1944 and was the first Ki-84 unit in the JAAF. It has seen action in Central China, the Philippines and homeland defense, claiming 40 enemy aircraft destroyed and damaged, for the loss of 24 pilots. Its commanding officer was Major Ei-chi Kitajima, who had been appointed in June 1945.
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/perdomo/perdomo.htm

Admittedly these were P-47N's, but a late mode P-47D was just about as good. While rated at 2550 HP, Robert Johnson's P-47 was in fact pulling about 2700 HP, just 100 HP less than the N model, and the D weighed less.

Note that these were Frank's, the best that Japan had to offer, flown by two of their most experianced Sentai's.

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[plan_D]

Better gun platform? How do you figure that one out then? Two 20mm and two .50 cal is just as good and more diverse than six .50s.

 

[cheddar cheese]

Good account RG...

 

[plan_D]

-47N's were better than D's...quite a bit better.

 

[cheddar cheese]

I agree...Statistically they may have be close but stats dont show the whole story...

 

[Lightning Guy]

Plan_D the being a good gun platform has nothing to do with the numbers and types of guns. It refers more to how stable the aircraft was when firing and the covergence of the weapons. Granted, I am not certain which aircraft (P-51 or Spit) would be considered superior in this catergory

 

[redcoat]

No it wasn't. The Spitfire was a better dogfighter than the Mustang. The Mustang had a range advantage over the Spitfire, that's all.

That is not true. The P-51 was, in most meaningful respects, faster than the Spitfire. It was more manuverable at very high speeds than the Spitfire. It had a better zoom climb than the Spitfire. It was (a little) tougher than the Spitfire. It was a better gunplatform than the Spitfire. And it had better visability than the Spitfire.

What marks are you comparing, if its the P-51D and the Mk XIV Spitfire,( both of which entered service at around the same time) my understanding is that the only advantages (with these two marks) that the P-51 had over the Spitfire was in inital dive speed, and range.
As for being tougher, wasn't the P-51 banned from making certain manuvers due to its tendancy to break apart

 

[plan_D]

No, my point was that Spitfire was stable with so many different gun types. It was tested so much, with so many different lay outs...how could it be one of the best dogfights (if not the best) if its was unstable.

And, again, only person ever that has said a P-51 was a better dogfighter than a Spitfire. Even pilot reports all say the Spitfire outclassed the 'Tang in a dogfight.

 

[Anonymous]

Better gun platform? How do you figure that one out then? Two 20mm and two .50 cal is just as good and more diverse than six .50s.

"gun platform", not armament. The P-51 was a more stable shooting platform (as was the Hurricane). The P-47 was more stable than the P-51. Has nothing to do with the specific armament.

On top of that, the nature of the Hispano is that it relies on the structure of its mount for support. In its aircraft form, it is not workable w/o the mount, it would collapse and break upon firing. The Spitfire wings were really not rigid enough to support the Hispano and as a result twisted while firing, reducing its accuracy even more. Four Hispano's in the wings was tried and abandon for this reason - Spit IXc pilots almost always had two of the four Hispano's removed.

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[Anonymous]

-47N's were better than D's...quite a bit better.

At factory performance levels yes. However, by late 1944, most P-47D's in service were RE20 or later models. Most of these had been hopped up by the aircrews to yeild over 2600 HP, in Robert Johnson's case, more like 2700 HP. Performance figures we typically see have to do with the earlier models, sometimes with and sometimes w/o the paddle prop. The laminar flow wing of the P-47D was better for range and very high speed, but not as good for turn and climb as the more conventional wing on the earlier models. The P-47N had 2800 HP but weighed a good 1500 lbs more than the D models, and ground crews in the PTO had little time to gain experiance with hopping up the engine (and its new C5 turbosupercharger), where P-47D ground crews in the ETO had had years of experiance with the R-2800(B) and its supercharger. Late model P-47D performance was, aside from top speeds, probably as good and in some respects better than that of the N.

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[Anonymous]

No, my point was that Spitfire was stable with so many different gun types. It was tested so much, with so many different lay outs...how could it be one of the best dogfights (if not the best) if its was unstable.

And, again, only person ever that has said a P-51 was a better dogfighter than a Spitfire. Even pilot reports all say the Spitfire outclassed the 'Tang in a dogfight.

Some planes were better gun platforms than others. This is far from the only factor involved in a planes quality as a fighter. The Hurricane was considered a much better gun platform than the Spitfire - that doesn't make the Hurricane a better "dogfighter".

Where did I say the Stang was a better "dogfighter" than the Spitfire? What I responded to was your statement:

No it wasn't. The Spitfire was a better dogfighter than the Mustang. The Mustang had a range advantage over the Spitfire, that's all.

Which is not true. I was simply pointing out that the P-51 did have other advantages over the Spitfire, not saying that these advantages added up to its being a superior "dogfighter".

The term "dogfighter" really is undefined. If what we mean by this is turnfighting until one plane is on the six of the other, the Spitfire XIV wins hands down. If what we mean is which one will win in a fight with equal quality pilots, it depends tremendously on the conditions of the fight.

The P-51 could do diving spirals the Spitfire could not follow. It zoom climbed better than the Spitfire, and it could do a high speed turn with less energy loss as long as it didn't turn too tightly (ie: stayed within the "laminer-flow bucket"). It had better pilot visiability, and was a superior gunnery platform, had 70% greater volume of fire, and its gun setup was effective to a longer range. The P-51 is faster in a mild-moderate dive than the Spitfire. The P-51 pilot is wearing the Berger G-Suit, and can sustain higher G forces w/o blacking out (especially advantagous in very high speed combat). Finally, the P-51 cruises much faster than the Spit XIV, so in a realistic contest, it starts with a 70-100 mph speed advantage.

Does this mean the P-51 wins in a fight? No! It means it has a good chance. If it can take advantage of its assets early, it can win. The P-51 can run away if it has sufficient altitude and the pilot has not let the Spitfire gain the energy advantage before he decides to exit combat.

The Spitfire probably wins a protracted fight fairly easily.

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[plan_D]

You're marking the P-47N down because of lack of pilot experience on them, that doesn't negate the design of the aircraft.
And I've already said dogfighting isn't turning fight, although it can go into one. It is well recognised the Spitfire Mk. XIV is superior dogfighter than the Mustang. Alright, the 'tang has a few minor advantages over the Spitfire but on a whole the Spit is better. Pilots who flew both all mark it higher in combat.

 

[Anonymous]

You're marking the P-47N down because of lack of pilot experience on them, that doesn't negate the design of the aircraft.
And I've already said dogfighting isn't turning fight, although it can go into one. It is well recognised the Spitfire Mk. XIV is superior dogfighter than the Mustang. Alright, the 'tang has a few minor advantages over the Spitfire but on a whole the Spit is better. Pilots who flew both all mark it higher in combat.

I assume your replying to me. I was talking about the mechanic's lack of experiance with the R-2800 and C5 turbosupercharger combo. They were not able to tweak this configuration much, where the mechanics in the ETO were very familiar with the R-2800 and turbosupercharger on the D model, and were able to tweak an extra 100-200 HP out of it over factory specs.

Pilots who flew both? Just what pilots flew both the P-51 and the Spitfire XIV? If you check, I think you will generally find that pilots say they enjoyed flying the Spitfire (early models) more, and make few if any comparisons for combat.

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[redcoat]

Pilots who flew both? Just what pilots flew both the P-51 and the Spitfire XIV? If you check, I think you will generally find that pilots say they enjoyed flying the Spitfire (early models) more, and make few if any comparisons for combat.

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Lunatic

This is from the USAAF 31st FG War Diary (when transferring from Spitfires to P-51s) "Although pilots think that the P-51 is the best American fighter, they think the Spitfire VIII is the best fighter in the air."

 

[plan_D]

I have read reports of Spitfires and Mustangs being tested against one another, and both pilots in the dogfight stating the Spitfire was better.
Not all pilots who flew earlier Spitfires enjoyed them, there were those that enjoyed the speed advantage on the Griffon Spitfires.

 

[Anonymous]

I have read reports of Spitfires and Mustangs being tested against one another, and both pilots in the dogfight stating the Spitfire was better.
Not all pilots who flew earlier Spitfires enjoyed them, there were those that enjoyed the speed advantage on the Griffon Spitfires.

Sure... but all moch dogfights end in tail chases.

The AD Skyraider consistantly beat the F4U-4 and F4U-5 in such contests. Does that mean it was a better fighter?

I'm not saying the P-51 was better, just that in the high energy combat of the late war, it was competitive with any prop plane flying. What it could not do was stick around and duke it out in an extended engagement, all its assets required the pilot maintain very high speed at all times (except at the peak of a zoom-climb).

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[lesofprimus]

Saying a plane is Competitive is one thing.. To go and say that it was a "Match" is something completely different..... Seems like u changed ur opinion....