Best Dogfighter Poll Revisited...

[Adolf Galland]

Turn performance is good, but being slower meant that the enemy could generally dictate the terms of the fight, disengaging at will. Subsequently, later Spitfires added emphasis on speed. The Spitfire IX is generally 20% faster at all altitudes, accelerates better, and climbs faster than earlier variants. It can still dominate the low-speed turning fight against a 109, but also has the option of diving away and escaping a battle. Lastly, the Spitfire IX packs more punch, carrying two 20mm cannons and four .303cal machine guns.

Faster German planes, like the Fw190, again called for a faster Spitfire. The Spitfire XIV, weighing some 8,400 pounds compared to the Spitfire Ia's 5,700, is substantially faster than the IX, performing better at all altitudes. The XIV can meet any Luftwaffe fighter on equal terms with the exception of the significantly-faster Me262 jet."

Is the site wrong about the Spitfire?

 

[lesofprimus]

Three posts in a row..... Whatcha tryin to do boy, set a new record???

 

[Adolf Galland]

Notes: The Spitfire I suffered from a carburetor problem which caused the engine to cut out if the pilot performed an inverted maneuver like a Split-S.

 

[Adolf Galland]

No, just tell those ppl that the site is NOT wrong.

 

[redcoat]

and about the spit...

"The Spitfire was conceived about the time that the importance of speed and climb rate was being discovered. Subsequently, the early Spitfires were rather slow with poor climb rates, but (being very light weight) possessed excellent turn performance."

Whats the source for these odd quotes....

The RAF,along with every other air force, had known about the importance of speed and climb since WW1

Even with the Mk 1 the Spitfire was was capable of 355mph at 19,000ft, while the top speed of the E model Bf 109 was 357mph at 11,500ft (the A-D marks were all considerably slower)

 

[Erich]

I am a little surprised that the Dora 9 is doing so well in the polls with so few units really equipped with the bird.

 

[lesofprimus]

Im not.... It saw enough operational duties to be considered for this.... JG 6 under Barkhorn took delivery of 150 new Dora-9's in April 1945....

Fw-190D-9's first flew in May 1944 and began service in Aug/Sept 1944 with III/JG 54.... Protecting Hesepe and Achmer and Nowotny's Me-262's...
Equipped, from early 1945, JG's 2/3/26 and 301.....

Not sure on total production run.....

 

[Erich]

yes JG 2 in full and JG 26 for the most part as they absorbed III./JG 54 into their IV./JG 26.

for JG 3 1 staffel in the old IV.Sturm/JG 3 SturmFw gruppe. The stab had some D-9's under RK winner Oskar Romm who though it was the best a/c on the Ost front in 1945.

Stab of JG 4 under Michalski had some Doras on hand with the distinctive black/white/black rumpfbands

tests with JG 11, erg unit

JG 6 as you mentioned although the unit also had A-9's on hand.

II./JG 301 in the 5-7th staffels only. 8th staffel with blue numerals had A-8's and A-9's. Geschwader stab had the Ta 152H-1 in 45 III./JG 301 had the Ta first in January but sent them all to the Geschwader stab, III. gruppe then took back the heavier A-8.

there has been talk and notm proven as of yet that stab of II./JG 300 had 5-6 possibly 9 Doras on hand. Several pilots have made mention but no pics seen.......... ?

 

[Lightning Guy]

I still am surprised. As I noted earlier, many of the aircraft in this list could out turn the 190.

 

[wmaxt]

I say the P-38L as you all knew I would.

The mock fight with the Spit XIV is well known.

A Dogfight with John Lowell vs Adolf Galland in a fw-190D from altitude to the inside of a deep pit, Galland was defensive until fuel made John break off. In Gallands own words "You son of a Bitch, you dom neer keel me dat day"

In the PTO it was known that Bong, McGuire and others often had dogfights with Zero's (though slashing was the normal tactic).

In the words of Art Hieden a pilot who flew both P-38s and P-51s in combat " There is nothing a P-51 can do that a P-38L can't do better".

 

[lesofprimus]

Maybe we need to lose the name "Dogfighter" then, because some people believe there was more to a dogfighter than turning.....

If thats the case, the poll should be "Best turning plane".....

 

[Lightning Guy]

I disagree with the notion that turning was all that there was to it, but it was important. Being a good dogfighter basically means being able to turn, roll, and climb well.

 

[plan_D]

redcoat, the Fw-190 arrived in July 1941 over the skies of France. Far surpassing the Hurricane, and beating the Spitfire Mk. V. The Spitfire could out-climb, out-dive, out-roll, was faster, better acceleration, better armed...basically, just a better aircraft.

The Spitifre A-wings were under-armed. That's why they had the B,C and E-wings. My personal favourite is the E-wing (Two .50s and Two 20mm).
And dogfighting isn't all about turning.

Example - I was online on FB (with my CW Mk. IXe Spitfire) and went through a head-on pass against a La-5. Instead of turning round (I knew I could out-turn him, but I wanted to slaughter with style) I pulled up vertical, twisted starboard so my wing was facing him, banged the rudder over and fell down to face him. While the fool was turning - still - I came zooming down and tore his wing off. NO TURNING INVOLVED. Only moves were roll, climb and dive.

 

[The Jug Rules!]

In my opinion the Ki-84 Frank by the Japs is better than the spit in almost every single thing exept speed(climb rate, armament, range, manuvability) but i do not think that anybodyhere notice that

Could you show me a picture of the Frank?

 

[The Jug Rules!]

Example - I was online on FB (with my CW Mk. IXe Spitfire) and went through a head-on pass against a La-5. Instead of turning round (I knew I could out-turn him, but I wanted to slaughter with style) I pulled up vertical, twisted starboard so my wing was facing him, banged the rudder over and fell down to face him. While the fool was turning - still - I came zooming down and tore his wing off. NO TURNING INVOLVED. Only moves were roll, climb and dive.

Aahhhhhh! My favorite move.

 

[plan_D]

Ki-84 'Frank' (Captured)

Ki-84 'Frank'

 

[cheddar cheese]

Apart from the long tail that captured one looks a hell of a lot like a P-47...

 

[wmaxt]

The P-38 had an incredible acceleration of 2.8mph/sec the P-51 was only 2.2mph/second. A big difference in combat.

The climb was still 3,700ft/min at 20,000ft.

Dive with the Compressibility slats was as good or better than any other.

Arts Comment on the erlier P-38s " Despite these revolting developments (The operational problems, wmaxt) the pilots of the 8th knew that the P-38 could out turn, outclimd, outrun and outfight anybodys airplane in the air so the set about rectifying their problems" and "It makes the Gospel Word. The P-38L. Now there was the airplane." He flew both P-38s and P-51s in combat.

In the words of Art Heiden "Nothing to these pilots, after the hard winter of '43-'44 could be more beautiful than a P-38L outrolling and tailgating a German fighter straight down, following a spin, split-S or whatever gyration a startled, panicked and doomed German might attempt to iniate. You just couldn't get away from the P-38L. Whatever the German could do the American in the P-38 could do better.

The Roll rate in the J-25, L was great and at higher speeds the best.

The P-38 also had a "Clover Leaf" manuver at low/slow speeds that would cut a circle up very efectivly.

Earlier models couldn't do everything the L could.

And of course the pilot made the difference in combat where the aircraft are as close as these. The P-38 just had more to work with.

 

[Lightning Guy]

The Ki-84 looks a lot better than the P-47. It is a much smaller aircraft and lacks the "fat gut" of the P-47.

 

[lesofprimus]

And it flew alot better too.....