Adolf Galland
Airman 1st Class
...
Best Dogfighter Poll Revisited...
- Thread starter lesofprimus
- Start date
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the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
wow even this post is better than his
Erich
the old Sage
good morning or afternoon/evening where-ever thout dwell.
I'll make this very breif as I am very busy today and the morrow but would like to reply to RG's somewhat evasive posting.
# 1 I never play the numbers game so understand that
# 2 what I reported were truly casualty figures and confimred by the bomb groups and the historian/pilots of each one of those particualr bomb groups.
# 3 if RG or anyone else would like a German Luftwaff casualty figures I can help out as I have them too. True they are dreadful
# 4 it is obvious that RG does not understand my point or what I was trying to get at. Let's see real basic now. The Luftwaffe was not dead in the summer-fall or winter of 44-45 as you seem to figure. I have the accts to back this all up. Again I repeat, only when the Luftwaffe broke up the interior Reich defence (Reichsverteidigung) and sent 3/4r's or more of the defence units to the Ost front that the Luftwaffe although made up of still some excellent fighter Geschwaders, were they literally destroyed from the German airspace.
# 5 As I have also said I understand fully the 8th AF especially and they sending hundreds of bombers over in 1943 early 1944 and on certain battles the bomber groups in numbers lost many heavies, but what I am trying again to point out is that in the summer/fall-winter of 44 and 45 individual bomber groups lost more bombers at a given time than they did on missions flown earlier in the war. In no way does this discredit the function of the Luftwaffe although their own sources were limited in comparision to their overall activity with twin engine destroyers during later 1943 through spring of 1944.
Klar ?
v/r E ♪ on the morrow gents maybe...........
I'll make this very breif as I am very busy today and the morrow but would like to reply to RG's somewhat evasive posting.
# 1 I never play the numbers game so understand that
# 2 what I reported were truly casualty figures and confimred by the bomb groups and the historian/pilots of each one of those particualr bomb groups.
# 3 if RG or anyone else would like a German Luftwaff casualty figures I can help out as I have them too. True they are dreadful
# 4 it is obvious that RG does not understand my point or what I was trying to get at. Let's see real basic now. The Luftwaffe was not dead in the summer-fall or winter of 44-45 as you seem to figure. I have the accts to back this all up. Again I repeat, only when the Luftwaffe broke up the interior Reich defence (Reichsverteidigung) and sent 3/4r's or more of the defence units to the Ost front that the Luftwaffe although made up of still some excellent fighter Geschwaders, were they literally destroyed from the German airspace.
# 5 As I have also said I understand fully the 8th AF especially and they sending hundreds of bombers over in 1943 early 1944 and on certain battles the bomber groups in numbers lost many heavies, but what I am trying again to point out is that in the summer/fall-winter of 44 and 45 individual bomber groups lost more bombers at a given time than they did on missions flown earlier in the war. In no way does this discredit the function of the Luftwaffe although their own sources were limited in comparision to their overall activity with twin engine destroyers during later 1943 through spring of 1944.
Klar ?
v/r E ♪ on the morrow gents maybe...........
A
Anonymous
Guest
evangilder said:
What Erich is trying to do is point to a few incidentents where the Luftwaffe' massed its force and attacked a specific BG with some success and implying that this was representative of their effectiveness without also pointing out the losses suffered in the attack or the overall picture.
So what that JG-whatever massed 150 planes and attacked the 300 BG-whatever and managed to kill 30 bombers. He is trying to imply that such a thing means the Luftwaffe' was effective. The fact that the JG lost 30 planes that day is left out. The fact that there were 5 BG's flying 1500 bombers that day is also left out. And when the whole picture is considered, the Luftwaffe' was ineffective.
Yes I know figures and graphs are often decieving. In fact, German planes look much better on paper vs. US planes than they really were.
=S=
Lunatic
Erich
the old Sage
Bull s**t friend, originally and even now you are not even asking me for the casulties figures. you state I have never come up with them although I offered from my first post. You are a strange bird. The Luftwaffe was effective buddy ande I can plainly see you have not interviewed any bomber crewmen who went through a heavy Fw 190 attack in summer /fall of 44. their indication of effectiveness would definately enlighten you.
I love being called a liar............
I love being called a liar............
Lightning Guy
Master Sergeant
- 2,511
- Apr 29, 2004
But at the same time, weren't there numerous bomber crews who, by the end of '44, weren't seeing a single German fighter attack? And nobody get defensive that's just a question for curiosity's sake.
Erich
the old Sage
LG their were bomber crews that never saw an enemy a/c in 1943 early 1944. the point again is that the Luftwaffe was not dead.........
I'm now going to sign off of this thread
I'm now going to sign off of this thread
A
Anonymous
Guest
Erich said:
Erich,
I should have been more diplomatic in how I phrased my earlier reply on this topic. My appologies.
But, I still think if you look at the overall picture, the Luftwaffe' was pretty much ineffective by the fall of 1944. Yes they mounted some successful sorties, but that is looking at individual instances, not the big picture. And to accomplish this, they suffered heavy losses which meant such actions could not be sustained.
You can find interviews from many Iwo Jima vets who will tell you how terrifying the Japanese defenses were. That does not mean that they were effective or had any chance of turning the tide of the war. Please do not try to draw big-picture conclusions from isolated accounts.
=S=
Lunatic
Erich
the old Sage
I fully understand your feelings but after interviewing many veterans even locally I go by what their personal feelings were in combat. they thought the tactics of the Luftwaffe although in much more slimer numbers were still quite effective in dealing out death blows.
let me go back to 27 Septmber 1944 as one instance. The 445th bg actaully took a wrong turn and it was actually by total luck that when the unit took the turn that the P-51 escorts did not turn with them but stayed with the other 2nd air Division B-24's on their mission op. the 445th bg was first assaulted by the SturmFw's of IV.Sturm/JG 3 which knocked out 18 B-24's confirmed and within 2 minutes JG 4 and JG 300 Sturmfw's followed up behind. During the chaos of the first Sturm attack by JG 3;s a/c the 445th survivors shouted loudly for any and all P-51's to come to their aid; the Yellowjackets were the closest and tried to come to their rescue, the results were not that good for the Sturm Fw's for the last two attacking gruppen, although shooting down another12 plus B-24's they also took it in the shorts.............losses of 14 Sturm Fw's and 4 Bf 109G-6's of I./JG 300 which provided high cover agasint any P-51's. 2 P-51's were shot down by the German fighters.
another case is the 26 November 44 battle, in part I cover the JG 301 only. 16 B-24's knocked out of the 491st bomb group and several B-17's from another bg. 5 B-24's from the 445th bg. P-51 escorts were effective in the total overall picture as the 2nd scouting force of 6 P-51's and the 339th fg took it to the Fw's, my cousin being one of them lost and his Staffelkapitän of 5./JG 301. The battle was totally insane from JG 301's point of view as when the days tally was added they came up with a total of 58 bombers destroyed. later it was confirmed with the figures I gave. Losses were drastic whcih for JG 301 alone was 39 Fw's shot down ......
To put into perspective, the P-51 escorts were overwhelming from late August 44 till war's end. But as you can see from the begining of my post, any bomb group left alone could easily become dog-meat. Losses of GErman a/c are important as we have to take into consideration just how many were put up to try and counter Allied bomber formations and the masses of P-51's.
here is a casualty report for 27 December 44. Luftwaffe lost 35 pilots KIA, 2 pow, 13 wounded. 63 a/c shot down 60-100% destroyed. Claims were 28 Allied a/c, nearly all fighters............
let me go back to 27 Septmber 1944 as one instance. The 445th bg actaully took a wrong turn and it was actually by total luck that when the unit took the turn that the P-51 escorts did not turn with them but stayed with the other 2nd air Division B-24's on their mission op. the 445th bg was first assaulted by the SturmFw's of IV.Sturm/JG 3 which knocked out 18 B-24's confirmed and within 2 minutes JG 4 and JG 300 Sturmfw's followed up behind. During the chaos of the first Sturm attack by JG 3;s a/c the 445th survivors shouted loudly for any and all P-51's to come to their aid; the Yellowjackets were the closest and tried to come to their rescue, the results were not that good for the Sturm Fw's for the last two attacking gruppen, although shooting down another12 plus B-24's they also took it in the shorts.............losses of 14 Sturm Fw's and 4 Bf 109G-6's of I./JG 300 which provided high cover agasint any P-51's. 2 P-51's were shot down by the German fighters.
another case is the 26 November 44 battle, in part I cover the JG 301 only. 16 B-24's knocked out of the 491st bomb group and several B-17's from another bg. 5 B-24's from the 445th bg. P-51 escorts were effective in the total overall picture as the 2nd scouting force of 6 P-51's and the 339th fg took it to the Fw's, my cousin being one of them lost and his Staffelkapitän of 5./JG 301. The battle was totally insane from JG 301's point of view as when the days tally was added they came up with a total of 58 bombers destroyed. later it was confirmed with the figures I gave. Losses were drastic whcih for JG 301 alone was 39 Fw's shot down ......
To put into perspective, the P-51 escorts were overwhelming from late August 44 till war's end. But as you can see from the begining of my post, any bomb group left alone could easily become dog-meat. Losses of GErman a/c are important as we have to take into consideration just how many were put up to try and counter Allied bomber formations and the masses of P-51's.
here is a casualty report for 27 December 44. Luftwaffe lost 35 pilots KIA, 2 pow, 13 wounded. 63 a/c shot down 60-100% destroyed. Claims were 28 Allied a/c, nearly all fighters............
Lightning Guy
Master Sergeant
- 2,511
- Apr 29, 2004
I think everyone would agree that the tactics of massing against a particular bomber group were brutally effective. Yet at the same time, overall loss rates to American bombers were on the decline.
Adolf Galland
Airman 1st Class
as RG had said, the Luftwaffe is winning TACTICAL victory in those few battles, itz like winning 1 or 2 battle out of 10 and lose the rest, they are lossing badly STRATEGICALLY, and itz like the naval battle of Guadalcanal(many battles) where the American LOSSED a TACTICAL victory but WIN a STRATEGIC vitory because it stop the japanese on itz tracks but loss more ships than the japs.
- Thread starter
- #173
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
I thing that I keep going back to is that in mid/late 1944, there were more bombers destroyed than in 1943/early 44... That piece of information is all u need to see quite clearly that the Luftwaffe wasnt dead..
It may have been ineffective, but thats not being debated.....
It may have been ineffective, but thats not being debated.....
Erich
the old Sage
- Thread starter
- #175
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Theres something to be said about the term "Overwhelmed" when talking about the last days of the Luftwaffe....
Amazing courage of these guys to go up into the melee with such disasterous odds.... True Bravery......
Amazing courage of these guys to go up into the melee with such disasterous odds.... True Bravery......
A
Anonymous
Guest
lesofprimus said:
Not really. There were a lot more bombers flying, they were flying more frequently, and they were striking deeper targets. Loss ratios were smaller, and Luftwaffe' losses higher, and that is what really matters.
I thought that (Luftwaffe' effectiveness) is what was being debated. ????
=S=
Lunatic
- Thread starter
- #177
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
I dont think there is a debate over that.... The Luftwaffe was just completely overwhelmed in the end... They had some moments when they were effective to a degree, but overall, the Luftwaffe could not stop the Allied onslaught....
They fought as best they could in the end, but sheer #'s and fuel were Germanys downfall.....
Hard to be effective when u cant get enough planes in the air....
They fought as best they could in the end, but sheer #'s and fuel were Germanys downfall.....
Hard to be effective when u cant get enough planes in the air....
A
Anonymous
Guest
lesofprimus said:
But I don't think that was the issue in mid-late 1944. Yes the Allies had the advantage in terms of total numbers, but remember that escorts had to fly staggered sorties to provide cover. As many as five sets of fighters had to fly to provide full cover within the range of Luftwaffe' interception. What killed the Luftwaffe' was when Doolittle released the fighters from strict escort and told the to "kill the Luftwaffe'".
German fighters were designed, much like the Spitfire, to perform scramble and intercept missions. This works fine if the bombers are not escorted or if they are grossly under-escorted. But, once the 8th AF fighters were freed to go hunting, they often caught the Luftwaffe trying to climb to intercept, when they were extremely vulnerable. A group of P-47's or P-51's on escort duty would, after being relieved of escort by the next escort group, go hunting for any German's climbing and staging for intercept.
It did not matter that the German fighters climbed better than the US fighters, the US fighters started with the altitude and speed advantage because they were already up high. What the German's really needed were fighters capable of climbing high early and patrolling for hours so they would have advantagous position when the Allied fighters and bombers arrived. The German fighters trying to climb and intercept an incomming bomber formation while being subject to roving fighter sweeps were relatively easy meat.
=S=
Lunatic
RG_Lunatic:
Surely I have not been around the way Erich has; I am 21, and began knowing and learning about that shitty world war two thing 5 or 6 years ago. I`ve had the chance of speaking with veterans of several of the nations involved as well.
You are highly influenced by the propaganda of your country; i am telling you this only with good intentions. It is not my aim to insult.
Why do you think victory of the USA is the exclusive product of superior weapons, superior tactics and the like?
Have you ever thought the German soldiers were sent to fight a war not even the very best warriors can win?
It is called MATH. The most basic of the mathemathical notions. The Luftwaffe was fighting three large air forces (RAF, USAAF and VVS) throughout and across vast and distant regions; that is not the fault of the allied pilots, but it happened to be a GREAT advantage for them.
The German soldiers and pilots in my opinion, are among the very greatest of the war. They were fighting a war impossible of winning. They gave the mind, the body and the blood for their nation, just like the guys of the USAAF, RAF and VVS.
It was the lunatics on top of the power of the Reich who did not do their job the way it should. See the work the Luftwaffe boys did with the VVS in 1942-43?
What else could the government of nation at war expect from any branch of its armed forces? The Luftwaffe guys faced a brave opponent, but virtually erased it in such a brutal manner the USAAF never ever came even close to achieve against the Luftwaffe in 1944.
Allegiance to one´s country does not apply only for victors.
A nation like Germany, could produce great planes and great pilots. The Luftwaffe´s human and material resources, however, had to be sent and scattered across huge frontlines (from the artic circle to the mediterranean heat, from the coasts of France to the soviet steppes) to fight against the large air forces of 3 enemy nations; there lies the issue RG.
You are convinced the P-51 was absolutely superior to everything the Germans fielded? Sorry but you are wrong. That victory was achieved does not mean the victors were better and superior at every department.
What makes you think the allied pilots who shot down German experten in dogfights were superior to the Germans? Have you got any idea of the countless elements that can arise during a dogfight?
Mr. Celebrity, Chuck Yeager, who speaks like if he made the greatest combat pilot in the history of arms, got himself surpassed and shot down in dogfight by a German pilot. You did not considered the gentleman lucky to be alive though.
If being inside a small plane, having machine gun bullets and even cannon shells hitting and exploding a few meters and/or centimeters away from your body and not getting killed or badly wounded ain´t luck, then it would perhaps be interesting to know what your notion of luck is.
RG: sum the fatal casualties of both the RAF and the USAAF bomber forces, and you will discover their losses were everything but low, not even moderate applies; the Luftwaffe inflicted frightful losses to both air forces. That the Luftwaffe took very heavy losses? Of course!! That is what they were there for, and they were totally outnumbered
As Erich correctly put it: the RAF, even if having the mossie, could never ever effectively come nowhere close to taming the NachtJagd of the Luftwaffe.
Surely I have not been around the way Erich has; I am 21, and began knowing and learning about that shitty world war two thing 5 or 6 years ago. I`ve had the chance of speaking with veterans of several of the nations involved as well.
You are highly influenced by the propaganda of your country; i am telling you this only with good intentions. It is not my aim to insult.
Why do you think victory of the USA is the exclusive product of superior weapons, superior tactics and the like?
Have you ever thought the German soldiers were sent to fight a war not even the very best warriors can win?
It is called MATH. The most basic of the mathemathical notions. The Luftwaffe was fighting three large air forces (RAF, USAAF and VVS) throughout and across vast and distant regions; that is not the fault of the allied pilots, but it happened to be a GREAT advantage for them.
The German soldiers and pilots in my opinion, are among the very greatest of the war. They were fighting a war impossible of winning. They gave the mind, the body and the blood for their nation, just like the guys of the USAAF, RAF and VVS.
It was the lunatics on top of the power of the Reich who did not do their job the way it should. See the work the Luftwaffe boys did with the VVS in 1942-43?
What else could the government of nation at war expect from any branch of its armed forces? The Luftwaffe guys faced a brave opponent, but virtually erased it in such a brutal manner the USAAF never ever came even close to achieve against the Luftwaffe in 1944.
Allegiance to one´s country does not apply only for victors.
A nation like Germany, could produce great planes and great pilots. The Luftwaffe´s human and material resources, however, had to be sent and scattered across huge frontlines (from the artic circle to the mediterranean heat, from the coasts of France to the soviet steppes) to fight against the large air forces of 3 enemy nations; there lies the issue RG.
You are convinced the P-51 was absolutely superior to everything the Germans fielded? Sorry but you are wrong. That victory was achieved does not mean the victors were better and superior at every department.
What makes you think the allied pilots who shot down German experten in dogfights were superior to the Germans? Have you got any idea of the countless elements that can arise during a dogfight?
Mr. Celebrity, Chuck Yeager, who speaks like if he made the greatest combat pilot in the history of arms, got himself surpassed and shot down in dogfight by a German pilot. You did not considered the gentleman lucky to be alive though.
If being inside a small plane, having machine gun bullets and even cannon shells hitting and exploding a few meters and/or centimeters away from your body and not getting killed or badly wounded ain´t luck, then it would perhaps be interesting to know what your notion of luck is.
RG: sum the fatal casualties of both the RAF and the USAAF bomber forces, and you will discover their losses were everything but low, not even moderate applies; the Luftwaffe inflicted frightful losses to both air forces. That the Luftwaffe took very heavy losses? Of course!! That is what they were there for, and they were totally outnumbered
As Erich correctly put it: the RAF, even if having the mossie, could never ever effectively come nowhere close to taming the NachtJagd of the Luftwaffe.
