Best ETO fighter from 1939-1942

[102first_hussars]

K Im Back, sorry about the false apects of both planes, I got the info mixed up, the info was between the Me-109/Spitfire.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Okay and what are you still talking about then. The Bf-109 first saw combat in the Spanish Civil War and the Bf-109E were used in Poland in 1939. The Germans were already using Bf-109F's in 1942 and in N. Afrika.

Also a Bf-109 were not stall its engine if it were in a dive or climb either. That problem was actually in the early Hurricanes and Spitfires I believe. The 109 used fuel injection.

 

[Gnomey]

Correct Alder the early Spits and Hurricanes could not do a straight dive as their engines cut out (no fuel injection), they had to do a half-roll into dive sort of thing to achieve a dive giving the chased plane (generally a 109) a huge advantage which German pilots used against the British. The problem was fixed in later marks of Spits and Hurricanes but not sure from which marks.

 

[CurzonDax]

The P-38L was available at the same time as the P-47D/P-51D were available in the ETO and was superior to both and had none of the problems that were supposedly in the early models remained. The P-38s kill rate was twice the P-51s which was ahead of the P-47. Further the P-38s record was achieved with green planes, green pilots, green ground crew, insuffient support, machanical losses against experienced German pilots and 10:1 P-38 odds NONE of which the P-51/P-47s had to deal with.

Several sources claim 20:1 P-38 for the L models fighting in the same conditions in the ETO with the P-51D/P-47Ds, and even without Ls the MTO rate was 6:1 P-38.

In '39 through '42 the Bf-109 has to be considered with the Spit V, Fw190A, and P-38 with the P-40 and Hurricane close behind too. The best plane in this group is who is the best pilot/best mission. Long range escort was absolutly the P-38, the heavest bomb load was the P-38 (3,200lbs), high cover was P-38 (and cold fingers) and the P-38 could mix it up on ~equal terms with the others. The ETO, and its sustained very high altitude, was not involved at this time.[/quote]

HORRAY!!!!!! YIPPPIE!!!!! Someone has come to the defense of the USAAF. By the way get off my brain cell with all this info for I probably looked that the same sources exept I also looked in Martin Caidin's Forked Tailed Devil.

:{)

 

[syscom3]

Since the subject of the thread is 1939-1942, I dont think we need to discuss what the P38 was doing after Jan 1 1943.

 

[wmaxt]

Since the subject of the thread is 1939-1942, I dont think we need to discuss what the P38 was doing after Jan 1 1943.

If you check the post after I adressed the P-51/P-47 comment I discussed the '39/'42 issue. I agree this should be kept on topic as much as possible.

Curzon,
Martin Cadin was only 1 of the sources that claim that ratio. Martins books are sometimes derided because he he takes license sometimes, in the Forked Tailed Devil he mixes both the old myths and some real good stuff I would rate it as 6.5/7 out of 10 on the truth scale. Warren Bodies book and the Planes and Pilots page (a link is an earlier post) are both very good sources of P-38 data and history.

wmaxt

 

[CurzonDax]

Curzon,
Martin Cadin was only 1 of the sources that claim that ratio. Martins books are sometimes derided because he he takes license sometimes, in the Forked Tailed Devil he mixes both the old myths and some real good stuff I would rate it as 6.5/7 out of 10 on the truth scale. Warren Bodies book and the Planes and Pilots page (a link is an earlier post) are both very good sources of P-38 data and history.

Oh I know this. I have both books but did not know this website existed until the post. Still I am glad that someone else besides me came to the rescue of the USAAF. Sometimes I think that the USAAF fighter force in the ETO is overshadowed by the RAF and the GAF because the latter two organizations seem to have a more romantic image. But I do have to admit that the USAAF in the ETO/MTO did not come into its own until mid '43.

:{)

 

[plan_D]

The Me-109E actually saw combat in the Spanish Civil War. There were apparently forty-four E-model Me-109s serving with the Kondor Legion by the wars end. They were E-1s and E-3s.

The source: Emiliani, A. and Ghergo, G.F. (1986) Nei Cieli di Spagna - 1936-39 Immagini e documenti delle Forze Aeree in Guerra. Giorgi Apostolo Editore, Madrid.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Your probably right but the point was that no matter which aircraft he is talking about weather it be the Fw-190, Bf-109, or the Spitfire they saw action before 1942 and not over N. Afrika (yes they saw action in N. Afrika but that was not the first place) and it was not the Fw-190 or the Bf-109 that would stall out in a dive or climb. Just trying to get some facts straight here.

 

[wmaxt]

Your probably right but the point was that no matter which aircraft he is talking about weather it be the Fw-190, Bf-109, or the Spitfire they saw action before 1942 and not over N. Afrika (yes they saw action in N. Afrika but that was not the first place) and it was not the Fw-190 or the Bf-109 that would stall out in a dive or climb. Just trying to get some facts straight here.

I'm not sure what you mean, The Spit had a negitive G carb problem and in the flight regimes in the MTO the P-38 climbed/dived/turned with any of the others, as for stall the P-38 was the best of any aircraft in WWII.

If were talking '39, '41 the P-38 and nouth Africa doesn't belong, I think most of us included '42.

wmaxt

 

[plan_D]

The Spitfire wouldn't stall out in a dive or climb except in special circumstances. The problem was with inverted dives, the engine would cut out because of the carb. This was solved in the Spitfire V. The Spitfire IX was introduced in 1942 and didn't have the problem at all.

 

[102first_hussars]

No what i meant was that the, never mind I still think the Hurricane was an all around good plane and because its cobat record was very seasond it was the best of this time period.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Your probably right but the point was that no matter which aircraft he is talking about weather it be the Fw-190, Bf-109, or the Spitfire they saw action before 1942 and not over N. Afrika (yes they saw action in N. Afrika but that was not the first place) and it was not the Fw-190 or the Bf-109 that would stall out in a dive or climb. Just trying to get some facts straight here.

I'm not sure what you mean, The Spit had a negitive G carb problem and in the flight regimes in the MTO the P-38 climbed/dived/turned with any of the others, as for stall the P-38 was the best of any aircraft in WWII.

If were talking '39, '41 the P-38 and nouth Africa doesn't belong, I think most of us included '42.

wmaxt

No I was not talking about the P-38.

 

[The Jug Rules!]

Bristol Beufighter...I havent heard much about her. What did she do besides ground attack?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Bristol Beufighter...I havent heard much about her. What did she do besides ground attack?

Nightfighter

 

[evangilder]

I seem to remember that the Beaufighter was called whispering death because of the quietness of the sleeve-valve engines.

 

[CurzonDax]

I seem to remember that the Beaufighter was called whispering death because of the quietness of the sleeve-valve engines.

Thats what I was saying a while back. Don't know much about this plane but it seemed to be everywhere in the Med or in India-Burma. But yes it it seemed to be used as a ground attack plane, especially in the maritime role.

:{)

 

[cheddar cheese]

Great anti-shipping a/c.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

yup she was an exceptional bird, very tough!

 

[evangilder]

I have been looking for a Beaufighter T-shirt for quite a while. Can't seem to find one here in the states.