Best execution of the Bf 110 layout?

[Admiral Beez]

The Bf 110 had twin engines, heavy forward armament, twin seats in tandem, pilot in front, gunner facing backward with handheld machine guns. Which other aircraft had the same layout, and how well did they do?

I'm not sure if the Potez 671 or Fokker G.I are in this category, as I see records claiming they were three seaters, but perhaps that's the bomber variant.

 

[buffnut453]

Beaufighter has to be up high on the list, methinks.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

The gunship version of the A-20 and B-25 were more attuned to the attack mission rather than air-to-air, but in that realm they gotta be right up there. For air-to-air maybe the A-20 could cut the mustard in some circumstances, but I'd say the Beaufighter for its truly heavy armament. The Ju-88 C-4 and -6 should be in the discussion as well, but I don't know enough about them to have an informed opinion.

A direct comparison is difficult for me, because of the different mission requirements of the various planes.

 

[Ascent]

Beaufighter has to be up high on the list, methinks.

That was the one that immediately came to my mind as well.

 

[pbehn]

I think in terms of "work scope" the guy in the back was a gunner when required, his day job was a radio/ Morse code operator, in the days of crap voice radio using Morse increased the radio range hugely. His seat was a work of engineering art, it rotated to look forward or backwards and allowed a lot of rear leaning to fire the gun(s) at high elevation.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Beaufighter has to be up high on the list, methinks.

Was there a rear gunner?

 

[buffnut453]

Was there a rear gunner?

This picture would suggest yes:

 

[pbehn]

Was there a rear gunner?

As with the Bf 110 some had the facility for a man to fire a rear gun as per pic above, but that man had a lot of other jobs too.

 

[buffnut453]

As with the Bf 110 some had the facility for a man to fire a rear gun as per pic above, but that man had a lot of other jobs too.

Well we don't want him getting bored. I know what RAF types can be like when they get bored...imaginative things start to happen!

 

[pbehn]

Well we don't want him getting bored. I know what RAF types can be like when they get bored...imaginative things start to happen!

If he gets bored, he can look out of the other Perspex dome in the picture, if only to prevent the pilot doing so. On early Beaufighters one of his jobs was re loading the drums on the cannon.

 

[GrauGeist]

The Bf110 had provisions for a third crewman, so the crew could be either two or three depending on the mission.

The Japanese had a comparable heavy fighter with the KI-45.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

If he gets bored, he can look out of the other Perspex dome in the picture, if only to prevent the pilot doing so. On early Beaufighters one of his jobs was re loading the drums on the cannon.

A pretty odious job from what I've read.

 

[Admiral Beez]

The gunship version of the A-20 and B-25

Both are among my favourite strike aircraft, but I don't think either of these were two man, tandem seaters in the guise of the Bf 110.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Both are among my favourite strike aircraft, but I don't think either of these were two man, tandem seaters in the guise of the Bf 110.

Crap, I missed the tandem requirement, apologies.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Crap, I missed the tandem requirement, apologies.

The US didn't really take to this layout. There were attempts, including the Lockheed XP-58

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

The US didn't really take to this layout. There were attempts, including the Lockheed XP-58

Yes, I'm aware. The error was in my reading too fast.

 

[Just Schmidt]

Best execution is of course debatable.

The very first he-219's had a rear firing machine gun, originally remotely controlled barbettes were envisaged. Anyway it was only a few, and the aircraft was rather specialized. The follow up to the Ki-45 ,Ki-102,had a rear gunner, though the developments step between them (Ki-96) had not, the army having decided the use of a handheld gun was no use on such high performing aircraft. They seem to have reneged on that, anyway only a few hundred were built and most (all?) held in reserve for the expected invasion of Japan.

Not a fighter, the Ki-46 had the same layout, but as I choose to weigh versatility high, it looses out on account of being very specialized, the structure not really facilitating the late war fighter conversions.

Quite a few prototypes (amongst those the Soviet Pe-3 and Polikarpov TIS) had the layout, some may have been potentially powerful, but personally I agree with the Japanese army's original assessment of the limited usefulnes of the gun not in a powered turret or barbettes. Even then, the design of the gun mount on the Ki-45 was specially designed for smooth use (the problem seem to have been the slip-stream), while by the look of it the mounting in the Beaufighter wasn't optimal. Not all had the defensive gun, but I don't know anything about how common it was. To be honest, I'm not entirely convinced that turrets or barbettes were really worth the weight, drag and added complexity on aircraft designed to be very fast, the Me 210/410 being one example.

On balance, of planes that saw much action, I'm leaning towards the Ki-45 being the best executed. In truth I was surprised how few aircraft in widespread use i could think of with that specific configuration.

 

[pbehn]

Whether an aircraft was tandem or side by side was a matter of taste and fashion. The Canberra was side by side by the American B-57 was specified as a tandem set up.

 

[Clayton Magnet]

The Bf 110 had twin engines, heavy forward armament, twin seats in tandem, pilot in front, gunner facing backward with handheld machine guns. Which other aircraft had the same layout, and how well did they do?

I'm not sure if the Potez 671 or Fokker G.I are in this category, as I see records claiming they were three seaters, but perhaps that's the bomber variant.

How about the 110's direct replacements? the Me210/410

Edit: Sorry, I guess the 410 didn't have hand held rear machine guns, rather remote controlled barbette's

 

[msxyz]

How about the 110's direct replacements? the Me210/410

Edit: Sorry, I guess the 410 didn't have hand held rear machine guns, rather remote controlled barbette's

According to what I've read, the Me 210 was a step in the wrong direction, while the Me 410 was better in some respects (the remote barbettes may be considered an improvement too compared to a simple heavy machine gun).

Possibly the best twin engine heavy fighter to see the light of day could have been the Ki-83, but it never went past the prototype stage.