I find this funny that an argument about the Tiger has been pulled down to the Tiger in Normandy, and then even further about the Tiger in Villers-Bocage. I assume, m kenny, you're choosing the ignore the Tiger had been on the battlefield since 1942.
I think you narrow the boundry too much. I suggest you take it that I am on about the whole of the Normandy campaign. Villers just stands out as the most overhyped example concerning the Tiger tank. Because it was so well documented it is also the easiest to expose.
As for Russia, I know it fought there but I repeat an earlier statement of mine. I refuse to talk about a subject where I believe I do not have the information to argue authoratively. If I don't 'know' I dont 'say'.
I would add this though. German tank kill claims in Russia are astronomical.
The totals were so over the top that the German High Command automaticaly gave a 33%-50% reduction before they collated them for intelligence purposes.
I have yet to see any account or Unit report that admits this when they tabulate their 'kills'. The initial raw and unadjusted claim is ALWAYS used.
In Normandy Will Fey (sSS PzAbt 102)claimed some 14 Shermans and 'too many to count' other vehicles on 7/8/44. Checking the British accounts we find not a mention of this great act in any of the Units supposedly hit.
More importantly, you laugh and joke about the Allies "not" being scared of the Tiger. Well, that's funny because I've read and seen interviews, and spoken to a couple of British tankers myself who have all said the Tiger was a great war machine and they would fear it on the battlefield.
Being scared of a superior vehicle is a normal reaction. I presume PzIV crews were 'scared', Stug. crews were 'scared', Jagdpanther crews were 'scared'. Anybody with an ounce of sense would have been scared. However to go further and suggest that a Tiger only had to poke its nose round a corner for panic to grip the Allied tankers is a step too far. Tigers were taken in combat wherever they were seen and a good number were despatched for their trouble.
The Tiger inflicted tons more losses on the Eastern Front than on the Western because A) There were more there, and B) There were more targets.
or C) The Russian records do not allow us to check the claims and thus by default they are accepted?
You might have all the numbers for Normandy, but look a little further beyond Normandy and you'll see the Tiger was a great war machine. And the King Tiger was the most powerful AFV in the war.
Some 500 tanks introduced late and without any back up. Met in penny packets and not able to alter the course of any action in which they took part. Might be the most 'powerful' but it was never close to being the most effective.
Check the accounts about sPzAbt 506 at Arnhem and you will see that there are photos of 3 knocked out TII's and 4 had to be towed away damaged.
sSS PzAbt 501 didn't exactly cover itself in glory in the Ardennes either
Tigers in the Ardennes
page
The Battle 26 December - 2 Janua
"The actions to support Kampfgruppe Peiper took a heavy toll of s. SS-Pz.Abt. 501. At least 12 Tigers had been knocked out or abandoned between Stavelot and La Gleize, and many more were unavailable due to mechanical failure. The battalion regrouped and moved into an assembly area east of Vielsalm to refit and reorganize. The 1. Kompanie handed its tanks over to the other companies and departed for Sennelager in Germany to receive new tanks. The remaining Tigers, approximately 15, were grouped into a kampfgruppe commanded by SS-Hauptsturmführer Möbius. This unit fought alongside Peiper's remaining tanks as the 1. SS-Panzerdivision attacked south of Bastogne on 30-31 December in an attempt to cut the corridor that U.S. forces had opened to that beleaguered city. At least two more Königstigers were lost in those battles. The remainder withdrew with the rest of the division at the beginning of January to refit in the Köln area.
The 501st SS Heavy Tank Battalion did not fight again as a unit. The bulk of the battalion accompanied the 1. SS-Panzerdivision to Hungary in late January and fought through Hungary and Austria to the end of the war. Part of the 1. Kompanie and other elements that had remained in Germany drew a few new tanks and continued to fight as the Americans approached Bielefeld. In early April the surviving crewmen were moved by train to Austria and united with the rest of the battalion. SS-Obersturmbannführer von Westernhagen had died on 20 March 1945 in Hungary. The remnants of his battalion surrendered to the Americans in Austria. The Tigers had roared their last."
The Allies and Soviets had to adapt tactics to the Tigers, the Tigers didn't need to fear the Shermans.
The average Allied tanker never saw a Tiger in Western Europe. They were rare beasts indeed and hardly ever encountered.
752nd Tank Battalion got plenty of Tiger kills ...I'm sure they'll give you a hard-on.
I advise caution. I repeat that ALL tank kill claims are considerably in excess of reality. Check first before you commit yourself to this Units claim.
Thank you M_kenny but I'll go with what Cpt. Diaz says, I have a feeling is abit more into things than you are.
It is actualy Captain Pat Dyas. Pat has been dead a few years now but I have met and spoken to John Cloudsley Thompson. He was with Pat that day in Villers Bocage and was also hit by Wittmann. All his crew got out alive (88's did not always destroy everything).
John liked and respected Pat (Pat was John's best man) but disputes Pat's version of the days fighting. All very technical and not really important-other than to let you know I have met many of the British soldiers who fought and served in 4th CLY. I have a lot of contacts in this area.
Despite what some of your fellow writers might say
Fellow writers? Daniel Taylor was quite a friend of Pat Dyas.
pD it does not matter. What you have been saying is what I have been saying the whole damn time, but m kenny chooses to ignore this. I too find it funny that he think we should believe what he says over interviews and statements by allied tanks crews. .
I doubt if anyone is going to change their mind on anything.
Pauline conversions are rare and nothing I say could ever change what people 'know' is true. I am unable to believe anything not allowed by the figures.
Impasse!
No one changes but the world keeps turning. It is not something I worry about
and I presume the same applies to the others.
Like he is more creditable than the guys who actually fought in the war.
The logic of the above is that no one other than a combat veteran can ever write with any authority. Every WWII author born after 1940 is therefore 'not credible'-except of course, when he agrees with you(or me)
I dont even know who this m kenny guy is, and frankly dont give a damn who he is either.
Decorum would prevent me from giving the appropiate reply (Ditto in spades!)
