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But overrated compared to what? Again I'd say the Zero is the choice for most successful or effective fighter in the PTO in 1942 overall."WHo thinks the Wildcat was overrated"?
My personal opinion is it got a lot of press for the victories it got in the carrier battles of 1942.
But if it went head to head with Oscars or Zero's over (or near) a Japanese base, it might not have been so good. At Guadalcanal, the Zero's were at a disadvantage where even lightly damaged aircraft were lost because they were so far away from the nearest Japanese held airfields.
But if even if limiting it to PI and DEI, it's as follows:My comments were solely about PI and Java campaigns. All of the ~ 150+ B-17s sent to Pacific before December 7,1941 were B-17C/D with C's upgraded to D's.
In all the 5th, 7th, 11 and 19th were the only B-17 Groups in the PTO during PI and Java campaigns but only 30+ of the force that went to Java in January were E's.
But if even if limiting it to PI and DEI, it's as follows:
-the initial OOB of the FEAF on Luzon was 35 B-17D's. None of the C/D's in Hawaii or elsewhere ever saw combat, except those destroyed in the PH raid.
I am pretty sure the survivors that went to Australia combat ops in Australia after DEI - the Swoose comes to mind but I think there were some D's out of Hawaii and Midway during the Midway battles from 11th BG. I do not know that D's went to New Guinea for Battle Bismark with 5th BG or not
-17 of those FEAF planes were destroyed on the ground in the intitial Japanese bombing raids Dec 8.
-a total of 48 B-17E's were sent to the DEI by the end of that campaign end Feb 1942 (see Salecker "Fortress Against the Sun"), some came across the Pacific, some via Atlantic>Africa>India. 16 were evacuated successfully, rest lost, mainly on ground or damaged then dest to prevent capture (at least one was restored to flying condition by the Japanese, along with a B-17D salvaged in PI). Others were operational in Australia same time period.
B-17 aerial combat victories/losses through DEI, AFAIK, were:
12/7: 2 B-17C's w/o from damage in air by Zeroes, PH, besides ground losses
12/10: 1 B-17D damaged by Army Type 97, flew to Australia, cannibalized; 1 B-17D downed by Zeroes (Colin Kelly's a/c); 1 B-17D downed a Type 97
12/14: 2*B-17D written off, dam by Zeroes, claimed 8-11 Zero, no J loss
12/25": 2*B-17D retired from combat Zero damage claim 2, no J loss
1/17: B-17E damaged then finished off by strafing, clm 7, no J loss
1/25: B-17E shot up but eventually repaired 3 others run out of gas, clm 2 Zeroes and actually downed 2, first actual B-17 victories v Zeroes
1/29: B-17E downed, clms 6, 1 Zero lost
2/3: B-17E downed
2/8: 3*B-17E downed or written off, clm 5 Zeroes, 2 Zeroes act. damaged
2/19: B-17E written off from damage, aerial combat with Japanese bombers
Joe
Again I'd recommend "Fortress Against the Sun" by Gene Salecker. He gives which specific a/c were on pretty much every mission of B-17's in the Pacific. I'd trust this info more than guessing based on less complete sources.I am pretty sure the survivors that went to Australia combat ops in Australia after DEI
Note that the 5th was at Midway - I do not know if enough B-17s were in PTO to equip the 5th, the 7th, the 11th and 19th by June but the 19th continued combat ops with last remaining C/D's (including Swoose until it became WW and given to MacArthur) in Australia.
The 5th was at Midway and the 11th went to the New Guinea and the Solomons at Guadalcanal.
There is woefully little info on 'last combat mission' of the B-17C/D but it was after DEI .
Do you have a source for that, which apropo to Wildcat's question gives the actual Japanese losses combat by combat?Joe .... the P40's based in Port Moresby flying in the 2nd half of 1942 did far better than the ones based on Darwin. As the "lessons learned" were rammed home to the newer pilots, their effectiveness went up.
Do you have a source for that, which apropo to Wildcat's question gives the actual Japanese losses combat by combat?
Lacking a source describing the actual combats from both sides, and knowing they were fairly few, I haven't concluded anything about that period. From the list of pilot KIA's in Hata/Izawa's "Japanese Naval Aces and Fighter Units of WWII", I count 7 pilot KIA's in the period of USAAF P-40 ops in NG in 1942, ie after September 17, very small compared to their losses at Guadalcanal in that period. At least 1 of those I recognize offhand as being in a combat with 8th FG P-39's, Dec 7. Incomplete info (that I have) and it seems like a small sample. JAAF fighters also started operations in NG in late December, as did USAAF P-38's, a few combats at the end of the year involved one or both of those.
The Darwin P-40 plus Port Moresby P-39's pre Guadalcanal is two similar a/c in a much larger sample, and consistent inferiority to the Zeroes, something like 1:2. But even that benefited from lessons learned, in DEI campaign were the ratio against the P-40 was much worse than that. The F4F's don't seem to have had any period of consistent inferiority.
Joe
The initial B-17 force in the Philippines was 35 B-17D's (including C's that had been upgraded to D standard, which included self sealing fuel tanks), as were most of the a/c in Hawaii but the latter D's never saw combat except those hit in the PH raid itself. About 1/2 the initial PI force was destroyed on the ground the first day, the rest retreated to Dutch East Indies bases not many days after. In meantime a few were downed by Zeroes including famously Colin Kelly's a/c. But B-17E's were sent to reinforce them in the DEI, and it quickly became the predominant type, along with F's in the second half of '42. Most Zero victories in 1942 against B-17's were over B-17E/F's.
The US liked the E a lot better particularly for the tail guns to counter attacks from directly astern, perceived as the biggest weakness of the D's defenses. Many early Pacific E's were among those with the ineffective Bendix remote control belly turret, but it doesn't seem the Japanese exploited that much; by second half of '42 they tended to favor head on attacks, like the Germans. Anyway, small formations of B-17E's typical in the Pacific in 1942 sometimes suffered heavy % losses to Zeroes, and knocked down pretty few Zeroes themselves in reality. The Zero wasn't a top notch bomber destroyer by any means, compared to all WWII fighters, but it was often adequate against unescorted B-17E's.
PS: Renrich mentioned another very important area where the Zero outclassed any of the other fighters on the list (except the Type 1): range, and it was still longer legged than the Type 1. None the Allied fighters on the list were remotely close in range and that was a critical factor in a lot of the early Japanese operations especially by land based Zeroes. None of the Allied fighters on the list could possibly have conducted operations like Formosa>central Luzon, northern DEI>Java, Timor>Darwin, or Rabaul>Guadalcanal, not even close. P-38's only operated at those kind of ranges (and eventually longer ranges) much later on; even the 'very long range' P-38 interception of Yamamoto's plane in April '43 was nothing much range-wise for a Zero Model 21, predominant type in 1942.
Joe
I rate the F4F above the P40, mainly because the P40 had such a terrible ROC.
1. The key is whether it reflects the actual Japanese losses, not what was claimed. Otherwise it's a complete apples to oranges comparison with the numbers I gave, which are what each side actually lost. If they only *claimed* 1:1, the actual result could be predicted to have been much worse than that, given the overclaim rate by the P-40 and P-39 units in DEI, Australia, and early NG. In fact I'm surprised their claims would be only 1:1 at that stage; that doesn't sound right, actually.1. I have a 8th FG unit history that mentions that once the allies had a reliable way of knowing when the Japanese were coming, they could get up in the air and get some altitude. By the end of the year [Dec 31 1942] they had a rough 1:1 loss ration. Since the P40 was far better than the P39, it should have had a better ratio.
2. Dont forget that as the Guadalcanal campaign unfolded, the IJN stayed at Rabaul and began to turn things over to the IJA in NG.
Again I'd recommend "Fortress Against the Sun" by Gene Salecker. He gives which specific a/c were on pretty much every mission of B-17's in the Pacific. I'd trust this info more than guessing based on less complete sources.
The FEAF B-17D's 'retired' to Australia became transports and trainers, he discusses each a/c specifically, Swoose and the others.
Joe - I will get Fortress in the Sun. Having said that - Odyssey of a B-17 The Swoose - by Herbert Brownstein contradicts Salecker by stating that the remnant (a 'dozen') survivors of 19th BG DEI retired to Australia and continued combat ops - headquartered at Mareeta - and flew missions against northern New Guinea targets and Rabaul - staging out of New Guinea. May 6 appears to be the approximate date the Swoose became a Ferry ship. Clearly this book contradicts Salecker's assertion that no more B-17D's were used in combat after February 11.
Likewise he discusses in detail the inventory of the groups in Hawaii as of Midway. They still had a few earlier B-17's, but all the a/c on actual combat missions from Midway against the Japanese ships were B-17E's, he specifies for each flight.
I have zero problem with this as it was far easier to replace B-17D with B-17E for both the 5th and 11th while they were based in Hawaii - than the 19th in Australia. The first batch of B-17E's for the 19th was one USN 88th recon squadron of 12 E's on March 14th. In the meantime it was a B-17D that rescued MacArthur from Mindanao on 11 March. That definitely was a 'combat mission' under any definition
19th Bomb Group, USAAF in Australia during WW2
So given all the details he provides I don't see a reason to doubt Salecker's statement that the last B-17D combat mission was Feb 11 1942.
Brownstein goes on to say that the first few B-17E's started arriving in Australia to replace B-17Ds in March and the Swoose was selected and cleaned up in April, 1942 - then assigned to Brett. The Swoose remained armed and averaged 150 hours/month mostly flying to advanced based such as Port Moresby.
It is unclear when the last B-17D combat mission in which bombs were dropped or armed recon was performed by the 19th BG but it was after March 1942. The 19th still was equipped with the last remaining D's until sometime in mid to late April when the last were retired from Bomb/Recon duties
And the losses I gave to air action are also case by case correlating his book and Bloody Shambles, again I would take that over general references to 'desroyed' in Joe Baugher lists.
I have no quarrel with your approach - I don't have anything better than the Swoose book to refute Bloody Shambles on the Swoose subject - but it seems both well researched and documented so why is Salecker more reliable about "feb 11" as the "last combat mission" for a B-17C/D?
Joe