Best flying boats, from War over the Wine Dark Sea

[Schweik]

Due to some incomprehensible negligence on my part, some key aircraft were left out of the last poll, so I am making a revised one for the big flying boats only*. You can vote twice so vote for your favorite and your second favorite.

I added some stats to help you make your decisions. Flying boats were made in small numbers and there were many experimental types. The criteria I used was at least 5 produced, & saw action during the war, and had some kind of armament (i.e. it was not only a rescue or transport plane). Here is a little side by side comparison of the big flying boats, just for fun:

Flying boat / Engines / In service from / number built / top speed / Cruise speed / range / bomb load / guns / passengers
PBY Catalina / 2 / 1936 / 2,600 built / 196 mph / 125 mph / 2,520 miles / 4,000 lbs bombs / 3 x 7.62mm, 2 x 12.7mm / 3-10
PB2Y Coronado / 4 / 1944? / 217 built / 194 mph / 170 mph / 1,070 miles / 2 x torpedoes or 12,000 lbs (!?) bombs / 8 x 12.7 mm in 3 turrets and two waist positions / 44
Martin PBM / 2 / 1940 / 1,366 built / 205 mph / 135 mph / 3,000 miles / 2 x torpedoes or 4,000 lbs / 8 x 12.7mm in 3 turrets and 2 blister positions / 30
H6K "Mavis" / 4 / 1938 / 215 built / 211 mph / 138 mph / 2,981 miles / 2 x torpedoes or 1,000 lbs bombs / 4 x 7.7mm, 1 x 20mm /18
H8K "Emily" / 4 / 1942 / 334 built / 290 mph / 184 mph / 4,444 miles / 2 x torpedoes or 4,400 lbs bombs / 5 x 20mm, 5 x 7.7mm / 41
Short Sunderland / 4 / 1938 / 749 built / 210 mph / 178 mph / 1,780 miles / 2,000 lbs / 16 x 7.7mm machine guns in 2 turrets, 2 x 12.7mm / 24 - 82
Short Seaford / 4 / 1945 / 10 built / 242 mph / 155 mph / 3,100 miles / 4,960 lbs / 6 x 12.7mm, 2 x 20mm with three turrets, 2 x 7.7mm fixed / ?
Do 24 / 1937 / 3 / 279 built / 205 mph / 183 mph / 1,802 miles / ??? / 2 x 7.92mm mg's , 1 x 20mm / 10
Do 26 / 1939 / 4 / 6 built / 208 mph / 193 mph / 5,592 miles / ??? / 1 x 20mm, 3 x 7.92 mm mg / 4
BV 138 / 1940 / 3 / 297 built / 177 mph / 146 mph / 758 miles / 1200 lbs / 2 x 20mm, 1 x 13mm, 3 x 7.92mm mg / 10
BV 222 / 1941 / 6 / 13 built / 242 mph / 214 mph / 3800 miles (ferry) / ??? / 5 x 13mm mg, 3 x 20mm mg's, 3 turrets / "up to" 92
Supermarine Walrus / 1 / 1935 / 740 built / 135 mph / 92 mph / 600 miles / ??? / 2 x 7.7 mm mg / 10 (civilian version)
Latécoère 300-302 / 4 / 1932 / 7 built / 149 mph / 115 mph / 2050 miles / 660 lbs / 3 x 7.7mm mg / ???

(forgive me if I made any errors here)

Top 5 for top speed are: H8K (290 mph), Seaford (242 mph) & BV-222 (tied), H6K (211 mph), Do 26 (208 mph), & Martin PBM (205 mph)
Top 5 for cruise speed are: BV-222 (214 mph), Do 26 (193 mph), H8K (184 mph), Do 24 (183 mph), Sunderland (178 mph)
Top 5 for range are: Do 26 (5,500 miles), H8K (4,444 miles) & BV-222 (3,800 miles), Seaford (3,100 miles), and Martin PBM (3,000 miles)
Top 5 for armament are (arguably): BV-222, H8K, Seaford, Martin PBM & PB2Y (tied) and Sunderland

A few interesting facts:
The Short Seaford is the Sunderland Mark IV
The Do 24 fought for both sides and was used by the Dutch, Australia, Vichy french and Germans... plus the neutral Spanish and others.
Do 24's rescued 12,000 people per Wikipedia
According to this page, PBY Catalinas sunk 37 U-boats, Sunderlands sunk 26,
per Wikipedia Martin PBM Mariners sunk 10 U-boats, starting with U-158 in 1942.
According to this the crew of a Short Sunderland fought off eight Ju-88s on June 2, 1943

All images Wikipedia / Wikimedia commons

The poetic phrase "wine dark sea" is a bit of an affectation. It originally (or at least as far as we know) comes from Homer. Many find it confusing, there is even a bizarre theory that ancient Greeks didn't see color the same way we do today. But I remember it suddenly coming to me once on a ferry ride from Hamburg to Amsterdam- which I had booked as a train ride but that is another story. Looking over the side at the deep, deep blue of the water such as you only see very far from shore, that phrase came into my head and I felt like I understood it's meaning. It is that same deep rich shade as a glass of wine. Not quite as dark as ink or motor oil but much darker than say, beer. I have loved it ever since and always think of it now whenever I am far out to sea and the water turns that deep blue color.

* I also included the Supermarine Walrus due to the excessive patriotic zeal of certain individuals

 

[Schweik]

 

[Schweik]

H6K vs. B-17

Type 97 Flying boat vs B-17

 

[Shortround6]

I also included the Supermarine Walrus due to the excessive patriotic zeal of certain individuals

It was used as a gunnery spotter in a couple of actions in the Med, It also may have made some attacks on U-boats, I don't know how successful (can't be worse than attacks by Ansons) and might have attacked a few surface ships?

Edit, this site Picture of Supermarine Walrus Military Aircraft and information

claims up to 5 submarines sunk or damaged by Walrus

BTW advanced warnings of pictures French flying boats would be appreciated so suitable protective measures* can be taken.

*welders goggles, gloves, coveralls, etc.

 

[Just Schmidt]

It was used as a gunnery spotter in a couple of actions in the Med, It also may have made some attacks on U-boats, I don't know how successful (can't be worse than attacks by Ansons) and might have attacked a few surface ships?

Edit, this site Picture of Supermarine Walrus Military Aircraft and information

claims up to 5 submarines sunk or damaged by Walrus

BTW advanced warnings of pictures French flying boats would be appreciated so suitable protective measures* can be taken.

*welders goggles, gloves, coveralls, etc.

Like this one?

 

[Vic Nighthorse]

Uh, guys "26" is 2 higher than "24" that means it's better

 

[cherry blossom]

One issue that needs to be discussed is that some flying boats were much better than others on rough water. For example, the PBY Catalina and the Dornier Do 24 were both superb boats, which was probably why the Do 24 was used for rescue into the Fifties despite the problem of parts. For the Japanese, the H8K has much better performance statistics than the H6K but the H6K was safer to land in a storm.

 

[stug3]

I voted for the PBY just because it did so many jobs for so long.

The Do 24 almost reminds me of something you could see on the original Star Trek tv show.

 

[Schweik]

That's a fantastic photo of that Do 24, and I quite concur. WW2 was a period of such rapid development, starting with biplanes and going all the way to jets, it seems like there was almost a new and very interesting design aesthetic every three or four months. Personally I like the early and mid-war planes the best. Later in the war they seem to start looking a bit too utilitarian and many of them seem too big...

 

[wingnuts]

I do think the Catalina and the Sunderland were the two most important on the allies side but the Walrus, AKA Shagbat or Steam Chicken, deserves a mention, if you were an allied pilot shot down in the channel the Walrus would be the most beautiful aircraft in the world. Also worth remembering that the designer was R. J. Mitchel who's next design was the Spitfire, I'm not sure if he used what he learned on the Shagbat when it came to the Spitfire. The Steam Chicken name came from when the seawater splashed up and cam into contact with the hot engine.

 

[GrauGeist]

* I also included the Supermarine Walrus due to the excessive patriotic zeal of certain individuals

I had to bring up the Walrus due to it's contributions during the war. Understand, of course, that it was British designed and built and I am a Yank, so there's not much chance that I was "flag-waving".

 

[Schweik]

Well, you weren't the only one.

Like I said before, I recognize the merits of the Walrus as a rescue and light scout plane, though not above necessarily other types like He 59, He 114, OS2U Kingfisher, SOC Seagull, Grumann Duck, Aichi E-13, IMAM Ro.43 etc. From what I read the Walrus was also one of those which often had trouble taking off after rescuing pilots. Anyway this subcategory may be worthy of a poll of it's own one day.

 

[Schweik]

Speaking of other categories, I was reading about the Laté 298 which looks like a pretty successful design and a contender for the role of seaplane bomber in the early war years. Apparently it had good handling and could carry a torpedo or a couple of decent sized bombs. Range 932 miles.

They built 120 of them and apparently they saw some action, even being used with apparent success as 'dive bombers' (possibly without their floats?) against German armored columns in the Battle of France, and then later during the Liberation of France in a more appropriate naval role. I see this as a competitor to the He 115 and the CANT Z.506

They were designed to be used on the seaplane tender - carrier Commandante Teste

There was a nice looking floatplane fighter designed to go with them - the Loire 210, though it never saw action and the design seems to have been flawed.



Avert your eyes Shortround6

 

[stug3]

1941 postcard featuring a Kawanishi H6K and cruiser 'Kuma'

 

[Schweik]

1941 postcard featuring a Kawanishi H6K and cruiser 'Kuma' View attachment 549109

Magnificent! That is almost poster worthy if it was a bit crisper...

 

[Dimlee]

I also included the Supermarine Walrus due to the excessive patriotic zeal of certain individuals

According to Wiki, Walruses have saved over one thousand lives in SAR operations in RAF. Probably some more in other air forces.
Not bad. They certainly deserve honorary mention.

 

[simonj]

S Schweik
The Greek concept of colour spectrum may have been different, the Celtic one certainly was.
For example 'Glas' can mean green or clear in Gaelic.
Orange is only a relatively recent addition to the English language and spectrum.

"The metaphorical tendency was already prefigured by Homer himself in the term "wine dark" sea. From that point on, indeed, we are dealing with literary convention, not immediate color experience" GREEK COLOR THEORY AND THE FOUR ELEMENTS - JL Benson
Essentially Wine rhymes in classical Greek

 

[Csch605]

I said Mavis since it made it to Attu and Kiska and Australia. In Australia it shook everyone up when Japan started bombing the ports. That got the allies attention quickly. Directing aircraft and resources to Darwin and Perth that could have been sent to Guadacanal or Port Moresby

 

[Schweik]

S Schweik
The Greek concept of colour spectrum may have been different, the Celtic one certainly was.
For example 'Glas' can mean green or clear in Gaelic.
Orange is only a relatively recent addition to the English language and spectrum.

"The metaphorical tendency was already prefigured by Homer himself in the term "wine dark" sea. From that point on, indeed, we are dealing with literary convention, not immediate color experience" GREEK COLOR THEORY AND THE FOUR ELEMENTS - JL Benson
Essentially Wine rhymes in classical Greek

To me like I said, my theory (arrived at while looking at the water while very far out over the North Sea) it was more of a quality of the color rather than just the color itself.

 

[Schweik]

I said Mavis since it made it to Attu and Kiska and Australia. In Australia it shook everyone up when Japan started bombing the ports. That got the allies attention quickly. Directing aircraft and resources to Darwin and Perth that could have been sent to Guadacanal or Port Moresby

I think it's clear the "Emily" had the best performance and combination of traits overall, with the "Mavis" not far behind. But they were flying for the Japanese Empire that did not have good fortune past the middle of the war, and I think Flying Boats were more attrition warfare weapons rather than the "Blitzkrieg" type that characterized Imperial Japans victorious streak in the early war.

Curiously the Japanese really didn't seem to spend much time or effort rescuing their own pilots the way the Yanks did with the PBY and the British with the Sunderland (and yes, the Walrus etc.) so they kind of missed an opportunity to do more with them that might have helped with the war effort.