Best Japanese B-29 'Killer'

[Hairog]

Japan's most effective defense against high altitude raids by the B-29 was the jet stream. These high altitude winds can reach speeds of 250 MPH. The B-29s flying from the Marianas to Japan had to fly against these winds, and they caused the ground-speed of the bomber to be reduced by the velocity of the wind. My physics teacher in high school was a B-29 pilot in WWII, and the only time he would talk about his wartime service was his frequent lecture about the jet stream. It must have traumatized the crews to have an air speed of 300 miles an hour and a ground speed of 90.

The jet stream also played havoc with bombing accuracy, being a big cause of the switch to low-level night bombing.

This is the key to the B 29s career in World War II. The bomber was the most expensive weapon system of the entire war and during the conflict was rarely ever successfully used as designed. It was a uickly discovered that mysterious jet-stream prevented, not only accurate bombing, but any kind of successful bombing above 25,000 feet. This negated the whole purpose of the 29s existence. It's ability to fly high above the opposition was its technological edge and reason for existence.

General Curtis LeMay realized a couple things after the first unsuccessful raids at high altitude. Number one was there was no opposition at any altitude. The Japanese opposition in the air was nonexistent due to lack of fuel and trained pilots. Number two this meant that he could carry-on virtual mass murder on the helpless population below, which he promptly did.

He stripped the bombers of all of their defensive weaponry except for the rear guns. Then proceeded to stuff them full of incendiaries and napalm. He then proceeded to burn to death hundreds of thousands of civilians per raid by flying in at low level and dropping these heinous weapons on the helpless populations below. Almost all the raids conducted by the B 29 we're done in this manner thus negating all of the bombers technological advances which had cost billions in today's dollars, tto design, test, and produce. All in all the whole B 29 program was a colossal waste of resources, for it rarely flew during World War II using the abilities that were so expensively developed.

It's ability to fly high and fast using it's pressurized interior was rarely used and for the missions over Japan and all in all a colossal waste of money. The same holds true for all of its defense armament. As stated earlier, all of the guns except for the tail guns were discarded and the crew members who should've been manning them did not fly the mission. They were replaced by more weapons designed in hell. Weapons that caused fire storms which literally sucked the life out of all living creatures below and causing agonizing deaths for thousands of human beings.

General La May's version of hell, was so efficient at dealing death and destruction, that many of the fire bombing raids exceeded the atomic bomb in extinguishing human life and causing agonizing pain.

The B 29 was clearly not used as intended, and could easily have been replaced by B-17s and the B-24s for the extermination of Japanese civilians.

On a side note, there is no logical reason why napalm was not banned along with chemical weapons and dumb dumb bullets. It is a heinous weapon only exceeded by the atomic bomb itself.

 

[Hairog]

Japan's most effective defense against high altitude raids by the B-29 was the jet stream. These high altitude winds can reach speeds of 250 MPH. The B-29s flying from the Marianas to Japan had to fly against these winds, and they caused the ground-speed of the bomber to be reduced by the velocity of the wind. My physics teacher in high school was a B-29 pilot in WWII, and the only time he would talk about his wartime service was his frequent lecture about the jet stream. It must have traumatized the crews to have an air speed of 300 miles an hour and a ground speed of 90.

The jet stream also played havoc with bombing accuracy, being a big cause of the switch to low-level night bombing.

This is the key to the B 29s career in World War II. The bomber was the most expensive weapon system of the entire war and during the conflict was rarely ever successfully used as designed. It was a uickly discovered that mysterious jet-stream prevented, not only accurate bombing, but any kind of successful bombing above 25,000 feet. This negated the whole purpose of the 29s existence. It's ability to fly high above the opposition was its technological edge and reason for existence.

General Curtis LeMay realized a couple things after the first unsuccessful raids at high altitude. Number one was there was no opposition at any altitude. The Japanese opposition in the air was nonexistent due to lack of fuel and trained pilots. Number two this meant that he could carry-on virtual mass murder on the helpless population below, which he promptly did.

He stripped the bombers of all of their defensive weaponry except for the rear guns. Then proceeded to stuff them full of incendiaries and napalm. He then proceeded to burn to death hundreds of thousands of civilians per raid by flying in at low level and dropping these heinous weapons on the helpless populations below. Almost all the raids conducted by the B 29 we're done in this manner thus negating all of the bombers technological advances which had cost billions in today's dollars, tto design, test, and produce. All in all the whole B 29 program was a colossal waste of resources, for it rarely flew during World War II using the abilities that were so expensively developed.

It's ability to fly high and fast using it's pressurized interior was rarely used and for the missions over Japan and all in all a colossal waste of money. The same holds true for all of its defense armament. As stated earlier, all of the guns except for the tail guns were discarded and the crew members who should've been manning them did not fly the mission. They were replaced by more weapons designed in hell. Weapons that caused fire storms which literally sucked the life out of all living creatures below and causing agonizing deaths for thousands of human beings.

General La May's version of hell, was so efficient at dealing death and destruction, that many of the fire bombing raids exceeded the atomic bomb in extinguishing human life and causing agonizing pain.

The B 29 was clearly not used as intended, and could easily have been replaced by B-17s and the B-24s for the extermination of Japanese civilians.

On a side note, there is no logical reason why napalm was not banned along with chemical weapons and dumb dumb bullets. It is a heinous weapon only exceeded by the atomic bomb itself.

 

[taly01]

This is the key to the B 29s career in World War II. The bomber was the most expensive weapon system of the entire war an

I read on Wiki (LOL) that the B-29 cost more than the Manhattan Project for the A-Bomb.

The $3 billion cost of design and production (equivalent to $42 billion today[5])—far exceeding the $1.9 billion cost of the Manhattan Project—

 

[Shortround6]

The B 29 was clearly not used as intended, and could easily have been replaced by B-17s and the B-24s for the extermination of Japanese civilians.

The B-17 and B-24 could not have replaced the B-29 on a one for one basis or even a 2 for one basis on those firebombing missions. They had neither the range or the load carrying ability plus many of the bases they operated from were restricted in size/area. You could only put so many planes on some of the island bases before you were out of room. You alos had to supply the ground crew as some of those island bases could not even supply fresh water let alone food for thousands of ground crew.

On a side note, there is no logical reason why napalm was not banned along with chemical weapons and dumb dumb bullets.

The term is Dumdum after the British arsenal near Calcutta India where they were first made in the1890s. There is a perfectly logical reason why napalm was not banned along with Dumdum bullets. Dumdums were banned in a treaty signed in 1899 which is well before napalm was invented or came into use (1942).
The banning of such bullets was a bit hypocritical as by the time of the 1899 treaty and the later 1907 or 1908 treaty machine guns were coming into more widespread use and they tended to jam using using such bullets. The original Dumdum was also open (lead exposed) at the back in addition to the front and had a tendency to blow the lead core out of jacket leaving the jacket stuck in the rifle bore to obstruct the next buller leading to a bulged barrel at best and burst barrel at worst.
The British by 1912 had designed a new spitzer bullet with a lead core in the rear and light weight filler in the front that fed well in automatic weapons, had superior ballistics (flatter trajectory than the older bullets) and unlike the older bullets was unstable enough to flip end for end when it hit something meaning it created a much bigger wound path than the old Dumdum or any variation of it.
Many nations developed more effective weapons and ammunition while paying lip service to those pre WW I treaties for propaganda reasons.
You can't shoot somebody with a dumdum or expanding bullet but it is humane or morally superior to shoot the same soldier multiple times with a machine gun?

Any treaties or agreements that banned chemical weapons after WW I usually just copied the language of the Prewar treaties when it came to small arms bullets.
At least one of those treaties banned the dropping of any sort of exploding or incendiary device from the air. We know how well that one was followed.

 

[Ivan1GFP]

The term is Dumdum after the British arsenal near Calcutta India where they were first made in the1890s. There is a perfectly logical reason why napalm was not banned along with Dumdum bullets. Dumdums were banned in a treaty signed in 1899 which is well before napalm was invented or came into use (1942).

Hello Shortround6 et al.

This sounds like the Hague Convention of 1899.
"The 1899 Declaration on Expanding Bullets "only creates obligations for Parties to the Declaration in international armed conflicts in which all the parties to the conflict are also Parties to the Declaration" (the United States is not Party to the Declaration)."

There was a ruling by the Army JAG that ballistic hollow point bullets were also acceptable for use in international warfare because although ammunition with such hollow point bullets (Such as M852 and M118LR) do not cause wounds different from FMJ bullets.

- Ivan.

 

[Barrett]

Which fighters were used more often for B-29 escorts, the P-51D or the P-47N?

Mustangs definitely. The Jugs did not arrive until June-July IIRC.

 

[Conslaw]

Mustangs definitely. The Jugs did not arrive until June-July IIRC.

Iwo Jima was taken to be a fighter base for escort fighters and an emergency base for B-29s. It proved to be more crucial for the latter than the former. The P-51s based on Iwo Jima had a hard time providing effective escort to the B-29s. The distances were longer than the usual distances in Europe, and it was difficult to time the arrival of the escorts with the arrival of the B-29s. When you add to this that the Japanese rarely intercepted the B-29s with large formations of fighters, and the fact that LeMay had largely given up daylight high-altitude raids by the time Iwo Jima was taken.

 

[The Basket]

blah blah

Japan also like to play the victim.

But please do not come onto the forum with your Japanese propoganda. Have you heard about operation Ichi-Go? No? Well allow me to retort.

Tell me how many Chinese civilians were killed by your defenceless Japanese in that operation in 1944? How many Chinese civilians were killed after the Doolittle riads?

How many defenceless Chinese civilians were killed at Nanking?

You mourn for the Japanese civilians who will killed in the bombings well good for you.

Keep your propoganda to yourself.

 

[BiffF15]

This is the key to the B 29s career in World War II. The bomber was the most expensive weapon system of the entire war and during the conflict was rarely ever successfully used as designed. It was a uickly discovered that mysterious jet-stream prevented, not only accurate bombing, but any kind of successful bombing above 25,000 feet. This negated the whole purpose of the 29s existence. It's ability to fly high above the opposition was its technological edge and reason for existence.

General Curtis LeMay realized a couple things after the first unsuccessful raids at high altitude. Number one was there was no opposition at any altitude. The Japanese opposition in the air was nonexistent due to lack of fuel and trained pilots. Number two this meant that he could carry-on virtual mass murder on the helpless population below, which he promptly did.

He stripped the bombers of all of their defensive weaponry except for the rear guns. Then proceeded to stuff them full of incendiaries and napalm. He then proceeded to burn to death hundreds of thousands of civilians per raid by flying in at low level and dropping these heinous weapons on the helpless populations below. Almost all the raids conducted by the B 29 we're done in this manner thus negating all of the bombers technological advances which had cost billions in today's dollars, tto design, test, and produce. All in all the whole B 29 program was a colossal waste of resources, for it rarely flew during World War II using the abilities that were so expensively developed.

It's ability to fly high and fast using it's pressurized interior was rarely used and for the missions over Japan and all in all a colossal waste of money. The same holds true for all of its defense armament. As stated earlier, all of the guns except for the tail guns were discarded and the crew members who should've been manning them did not fly the mission. They were replaced by more weapons designed in hell. Weapons that caused fire storms which literally sucked the life out of all living creatures below and causing agonizing deaths for thousands of human beings.

General La May's version of hell, was so efficient at dealing death and destruction, that many of the fire bombing raids exceeded the atomic bomb in extinguishing human life and causing agonizing pain.

The B 29 was clearly not used as intended, and could easily have been replaced by B-17s and the B-24s for the extermination of Japanese civilians.

On a side note, there is no logical reason why napalm was not banned along with chemical weapons and dumb dumb bullets. It is a heinous weapon only exceeded by the atomic bomb itself.

Hairog,

You are using some serious retrospectroscope here with a big dose of twist.

First, the B29 design was started in the late 30s IIRC. Aviation made a TREMENDOUS leap by the time it started flights over Japan. The jet stream was basically an unknown until it arrived on the scene, so it's hard to design against an unknown condition/ problem. So high altitude, long range flight was a design goal and high altitude wasn't used to the level it was designed for. However, it was designed as a weapon and used as such.

A commanders goal is to use his resources to the best of his ability, or as Patton is so famously quoted for saying, "Its not that I ask you to die for your country but to make him die for his". Tough words from a very experienced combat commanders perspective. The P47 gained fame for its legendary toughness, mostly earned while doing ground attack. The P38 was designed as an interceptor but really came into its own in med to low altitude long range work in SWP. The list of aircraft designed for one thing and used for another is long and distinguished.

Japan did some horrendous things to the Chinese, to the men and women they captured, and to everyone they fought. So did the Germans, so did the Russians and the British and the US (all to massively different degrees). No one was perfect by TODAYS standard. By yesterday's standard the above group was spread across a wide spectrum of good to bad. Example is Nazi Germany is looked at as one of the worst. Reality has shown Russia killed many more folks than the Nazis but who gets painted the most with the hate brush?

Yes we bombed the Japanese into oblivion. Why? To get them to surrender prior to an invasion. Why? Expected friendly casualties of over 1 million. Remember we had been in a world war for several years, and had lost many of our soldiers. The line had to be drawn somewhere and the leadership at that time drew it. Nice try blaming one man, and a military guy at that. Remember in this country the military answers to the civilian leadership and not the other way round.

Biff

 

[Ivan1GFP]

Example is Nazi Germany is looked at as one of the worst. Reality has shown Russia killed many more folks than the Nazis but who gets painted the most with the hate brush?

Those who win the war get to do whatever painting they like.....

 

[BiffF15]

Those who win the war get to do whatever painting they like.....

True, and one hopes it will be truthful.

 

[Ivan1GFP]

True, and one hopes it will be truthful.

It IS "Truthful" by definition because they get to write the historical record and the other side won't be around to object.

 

[Shinpachi]

If I may introduce an aspect of the historical background,

On November 7, 1944, the 10th Air Division of IJA ordered its flight squadrons (totally 12) to form a group with 4 fighters each to intercept the B-29s using Ki-43, Ki-44, Ki-45, Ki-61 and Ki-100. Rules were -

1. Do not use the brand-new or intact airframes.
2. Remove all guns, cannons, armours and radio equipment to lighten the weight.
3. Fly them with pilots who are not only skillful for the high altitude flight but do not afraid of ramming B-29s.

Pilots were ordered to return alive to repeat this attack.
These groups were named the Shinten Air-defense Unit.
Attack by ramming was carried out until the P-51s appeared in the homeland from Iwo-jima in April, 1945.

IJN's 302-ku was also established on March 1, 1944.
This unit relied on the cannons to attack basically.

 

[Shinpachi]

No explanation if this is Shinten unit but an army pilot of a Ki-45 explains how he shot and his friend rammed a B-29 to down above Chiba City near Tokyo. He says his first shot at 200 meters distance on the No.2 engine of a B-29 caused explosion but the target kept flying, so his friend Sgt. Yoshimura rammed the root of left wing to down. Yoshimura's fate is unknown in this video.

Scene from 6:33
Nippon News No.236 (dated December, 1944)

 

[Shinpachi]

A former squadron leader of the 53rd sentai of Shinten unit, Tetsuro Aoki says "We had no choice but attacking the B-29 from the front, whichever upper or lower, becaue the B-29 was much faster than our planes."

Kenji Suzuki (NHK)

Former 2nd Lt. Tetsuro Aoki

Source: NHK documentary video "Shinten Air-defense Unit" in 1981.
//www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1w7Gu_6XIE

 

[The Basket]

Ramming is not the best as good chance lose aircraft and aircrew and maybe bring down B-29 but 1v1 loss is hardly beneficial in an attrition war the Japanese were losing.

Was ramming an official tactic?

My solution would be Schräge Musik. Get a cannon firing directly upwards and so the altitude advantage can be negated.

 

[Shinpachi]

Yes, ramming was official tactics for the army.

 

[taly01]

Ramming is not the best as good chance lose aircraft and aircrew and maybe bring down B-29 but 1v1 loss is hardly beneficial in an attrition war the Japanese were losing

But a single engine fighter for a 4 engine bomber is a very good trade off, also its 1 vs 10 in crew men also, especially as B-29 (54,000kg) is 13 times the production resources of heaviest Japanese fighter (4,000kg).
This was also Luftwaffe Fighter Commander Galland's plan for his "Big Blow" against USAAF bombers in Europe in late 44, instead Hitler held him back then wasted Galland's fighter build up with the ridiculous "Operation Bodenplatte".

My solution would be Schräge Musik. Get a cannon firing directly upwards and so the altitude advantage can be negated.

If you can get close enough to ram your close enough to shoot, my solution would be 1-2 30mm on all Japanese interceptors. Maybe copies of the MK108 30mm.

 

[The Basket]

If ramming is the best option then war probably is not for you.
The technological and quantitative advantage of the USA is not going to be challenged in this way.
Plus you're losing a pilot and an aircraft which are resources which are not going to be replaced.

 

[Conslaw]

If ramming is the best option then war probably is not for you.
The technological and quantitative advantage of the USA is not going to be challenged in this way.
Plus you're losing a pilot and an aircraft which are resources which are not going to be replaced.

If the Japanese could truly trade one fighter and pilot for a B-29 and crew, in the cold calculus of war, it would be worth it. BUT, they would rarely get that opportunity.