Best Long Range Fighter of WWII
- Thread starter Soundbreaker Welch?
- Start date
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mkloby
Senior Master Sergeant
My point is that diving at high speed doesn't equate to an instantaneous quick kill.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Neither was 2,000 for the mustang...
No ofcourse not, never said so either. You'll note I didn't put a number on how many -51's would likely get shot down on the first pass - but chances are several would.
The Mustang has a range of around 1,300 Miles with 269 gallons of fuel - thats full internal fuel load
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
and 2300 miles with drop tanks...You stated the Ta 152 had a range of 1250 miles WITH tanks. Hardly a long range fighter when compered to the mustang...
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
Fuel capacity was 595 liters for the H-0 model with the option of a 300 liter drop tank on the centerline. The H-1 model carried an additional Total tankage of fuel was 595 liters for the H-0 model which could also carry a 300 liter, underbelly droptank. The H-1 model carried an additional 470 liters of fuel in six unprotected bag tanks in the wings, but typically one of these tanks was used to hold the MW 50 methanol-water mixture. The H-1 could also carry a 300 or 600 liter centerline droptank.
Another thing that I read....
"The Ta 152 was not afforded the time to work out all the little quirks and errors plaguing all new designs. These problems proved impossible to rectify given the situation in Germany towards the end of the war, and only two Ta 152 C remained operational when Germany surrendered. All the H-models had been grounded due to engine problems. Reportedly, of those Ta 152H that flew, most were used in a close-support role and as escorts protecting the Me 262 airfields while the vulnerable jets took off and landed. If true, this was not the role for which they had been intended. Again, there is no evidence that Ta-152H aircraft were ever encountered by Allied aircraft attacking German airfields."
Another thing that I read....
"The Ta 152 was not afforded the time to work out all the little quirks and errors plaguing all new designs. These problems proved impossible to rectify given the situation in Germany towards the end of the war, and only two Ta 152 C remained operational when Germany surrendered. All the H-models had been grounded due to engine problems. Reportedly, of those Ta 152H that flew, most were used in a close-support role and as escorts protecting the Me 262 airfields while the vulnerable jets took off and landed. If true, this was not the role for which they had been intended. Again, there is no evidence that Ta-152H aircraft were ever encountered by Allied aircraft attacking German airfields."
FLYBOYJ, I never stated anything about drop tanks, what I said was; " 1,250 Miles is on internal tanks"
The H-1 has an internal fuel capacity of ca. 1,000 Liters (264 Gallons).
The range of 1,250 miles is with full 'internal' fuel load - no drop tanks. So yes, the Ta-152H is infact a long range fighter.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
I stand corrected but with that said the Ta 152 did not have the ability to fly the missions the P-51 or later P-47s did which amounted to over 2000 miles. Was one ever used with drop tanks? A Spitfire V had a range of 1,100 miles, it wasn't close to being considered a long range fighter.
I would also gather that the Ta 152s range was a ferry range, flying at altitude leaned for cruise flight. In actuality it probably had a combat radius of about 500 miles...
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Could of, would of, should of. Soren, I agree the Ta 152 was a wonderful machine, but in the snapshot of history we are discussing, it was far from being deployed or being a long range fighter that could of matched in range. The Spitfire could be fitted with a tank as well and again it was far from being considered a long range fighter...
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
P-51D Mustang
General characteristics
Crew: 1
Length: 32 ft 3 in (9.83 m)
Wingspan: 37 ft 0 in (11.28 m)
Height: 13 ft 8 in (4.17 m)
Wing area: 235 ft² (21.83 m²)
Empty weight: 7,635 lb (3,465 kg)
Loaded weight: 9,200 lb (4,175 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 12,100 lb (5,490 kg)
Powerplant: 1× Packard Merlin V-1650-7 liquid-cooled supercharged V-12, 1,695 hp (1,265 kW)
Zero-lift drag coefficient: 0.0163
Drag area: 3.80 ft² (0.35 m²)
Aspect ratio: 5.83
Performance
Maximum speed: 437 mph (703 km/h) at 25,000 ft (7,620 m)
Cruise speed: 362 mph (580 km/h)
Stall speed: 100 mph (160 km/h)
Range: 1,650 mi (2,655 km) with external tanks
Service ceiling: 41,900 ft (12,770 m)
Rate of climb: 3,200 ft/min (16.3 m/s)
Wing loading: 39 lb/ft² (192 kg/m²)
Power/mass: 0.18 hp/lb (300 W/kg)
Lift-to-drag ratio: 14.6
Armament
6 × 0.50 in (12.7 mm) machine guns; 400 rounds per gun for the two inboard guns; 270 per outboard gun
2 hardpoints for up to 2,000 lb (907 kg)
10 × 5 in (127 mm) rockets
General characteristics
Crew: 1
Length: 32 ft 3 in (9.83 m)
Wingspan: 37 ft 0 in (11.28 m)
Height: 13 ft 8 in (4.17 m)
Wing area: 235 ft² (21.83 m²)
Empty weight: 7,635 lb (3,465 kg)
Loaded weight: 9,200 lb (4,175 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 12,100 lb (5,490 kg)
Powerplant: 1× Packard Merlin V-1650-7 liquid-cooled supercharged V-12, 1,695 hp (1,265 kW)
Zero-lift drag coefficient: 0.0163
Drag area: 3.80 ft² (0.35 m²)
Aspect ratio: 5.83
Performance
Maximum speed: 437 mph (703 km/h) at 25,000 ft (7,620 m)
Cruise speed: 362 mph (580 km/h)
Stall speed: 100 mph (160 km/h)
Range: 1,650 mi (2,655 km) with external tanks
Service ceiling: 41,900 ft (12,770 m)
Rate of climb: 3,200 ft/min (16.3 m/s)
Wing loading: 39 lb/ft² (192 kg/m²)
Power/mass: 0.18 hp/lb (300 W/kg)
Lift-to-drag ratio: 14.6
Armament
6 × 0.50 in (12.7 mm) machine guns; 400 rounds per gun for the two inboard guns; 270 per outboard gun
2 hardpoints for up to 2,000 lb (907 kg)
10 × 5 in (127 mm) rockets
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Tell me how many missions Ta 152s flew escorting bombers over the UK or USSR?????
renrich
Chief Master Sergeant
My data on TA152H-1 says the internal tankage carried 364 imp. gal. On internal fuel, clean, at 376 mph at 32,810 ft it could go 755 miles. That would be a yardstick range, not a realistic practical number. Max range with 66.2 imp. gal drop tank-1250 mi at 293 mph at 22965 ft. Once again a yardstick range. A realistic combat radius with drop tank might be around 420 miles. This data is from "The Great Book of WW2 Aircraft."
- Thread starter
- #76
Soundbreaker Welch?
Tech Sergeant
Well if the Ta-152 did start their attack at 50,000 feet would a P-51H be any help? They were designed for higher altitudes than the P-51D.
Anyway, just because the attacking fighters have a high top cover doesn't mean they will win, even though there is a disadvantage to the rising from the ground defending fighters. In the BOB, the Spifires and the Hurricanes had to rise to attack the higher german bombers, and the 109's had high top cover of them, and the british planes still shot down the bombers and fighters will little loss to themselves.
And anyway, it wasn't impossible for a P-51D Mustang to fly at 50,000 feet either. Seems that many websites and WWII boards suggest that the comfortable ceiling for the Ta-152 was 40,000 feet or even as low as 14,000 feet. There were some that said 49,000 feet, but did the Ta-152 ever fly that high in the evaluation tests of the Germans, or was it just paper statistics? Did the German test pilots roll it, turn it, dive it, climb it at 50,000 feet, and did it even do well? I mean, was it ever proven that it was the only fighter of it's day to have a range of 50,000 superiority?
My guess is, If both the Ta-152H and the P-51H were fighting at 50,000 feet, they would probably both be puffing for air.
Anyway, just because the attacking fighters have a high top cover doesn't mean they will win, even though there is a disadvantage to the rising from the ground defending fighters. In the BOB, the Spifires and the Hurricanes had to rise to attack the higher german bombers, and the 109's had high top cover of them, and the british planes still shot down the bombers and fighters will little loss to themselves.
And anyway, it wasn't impossible for a P-51D Mustang to fly at 50,000 feet either. Seems that many websites and WWII boards suggest that the comfortable ceiling for the Ta-152 was 40,000 feet or even as low as 14,000 feet. There were some that said 49,000 feet, but did the Ta-152 ever fly that high in the evaluation tests of the Germans, or was it just paper statistics? Did the German test pilots roll it, turn it, dive it, climb it at 50,000 feet, and did it even do well? I mean, was it ever proven that it was the only fighter of it's day to have a range of 50,000 superiority?
My guess is, If both the Ta-152H and the P-51H were fighting at 50,000 feet, they would probably both be puffing for air.
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
Same source for the above on Mustang....
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
The Ta 152H-1 was designed to take on the B-29's that the they thought would show up over Germany in late 1944 first hand, and not to dogfight with other fighters right?
Doesn't that make it more or less an interceptor rather than a fighter?
Or do I remember wrong.....
Doesn't that make it more or less an interceptor rather than a fighter?
Or do I remember wrong.....
Soundbreaker,
You can't compare BoB with this, the 109's in the BoB hardly had time to fight.
Renrich,
Read Dietmar Hermann's book on the Ta-152.
Lucky,
The Ta-152 was not designed to combat the B-29, that is a myth. The Ta-152 was designed as a high altitude fighter vs fighter a/c.
You can't compare BoB with this, the 109's in the BoB hardly had time to fight.
Renrich,
Read Dietmar Hermann's book on the Ta-152.
Lucky,
The Ta-152 was not designed to combat the B-29, that is a myth. The Ta-152 was designed as a high altitude fighter vs fighter a/c.
