Best medium bomber of WWII?

Favorite WWII medium/tactical bomber?

  • Dornier Do 217

    Votes: 5 4.8%
  • Heinkel He 111

    Votes: 1 1.0%
  • Junkers Ju 88

    Votes: 8 7.7%
  • Douglas A-26 Invader

    Votes: 8 7.7%
  • Martin B-26 Marauder

    Votes: 13 12.5%
  • North American B-25 Mitchell

    Votes: 24 23.1%
  • Douglas A-20 Havoc/Boston

    Votes: 4 3.8%
  • Mitsubishi G4M "Betty"

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • de Havilland Mosquito

    Votes: 32 30.8%
  • Vickers Wellington

    Votes: 2 1.9%
  • Savoia-Marchetti SM.79 Sparviero

    Votes: 2 1.9%
  • Tupolev Tu-2

    Votes: 3 2.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 2 1.9%

  • Total voters
    104

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I had to vote Mosquito overall, but I have a few runners up worth mentioning.

Everybody had different criteria for 'light', 'medium' and 'heavy' bomber. I think for the US it had in part to do with altitude.

My criteria for a light bomber is (somewhat arbitrarily) something that carries about the same amount of bombs as a fighter bomber to a range not much greater than a fighter bomber can fly. These are kind of useless unless they are super accurate or deadly (i.e. dive bombers or torpedo bombers) or have a good survival rate, though with a navigator they could also be useful as pathfinders. A medium bomber is a plane that can carry more than a typical fighter bomber (often about 2,000 lbs) and carry it a bit further than most fighter bombers can fly (say close to 1,000 miles nominal range). A heavy bomber is something that carries a lot of bombs a very long distance (say closer to 2,000 miles) - to me there's only a few of those: B-29, Lancaster, B-17, B-24, Hallifax etc.

My criteria for what makes a good bomber is different from most. Most people seem to believe whichever bomber could carry the heaviest load of TNT to the target area and drop it somewhere in the vicinity was the best. To me what makes a good bomber is destroying their target at a fairly high rate, i.e. not 1 or 2% of the time but 30 or 40% of the time (per raid, lets say). And mostly returning to base intact, as in, the majority of the squadron makes it back.

So by those criteria, the Mosquito is by far the best bomber. It could fly a long distance, with a moderate bomb load, quite often hit the target and usually fly back. That is a good bomber.

To me also, there were two criteria in WW2 which made a bomber survivable. One was speed and / or altitude, the other was guns (and armor etc.). Speed was better because it meant the bomber could do it's job without fighter escort. The heavy guns etc. only worked with a fighter escort. This was readily apparent not just with heavy bombers over Germany but also medium and light bombers (and some heavy) over the MTO and light and medium bombers over the Pacific (US heavy bombers could just about operate with impunity in the PTO, but they didn't do much damage until the second half of the war when the B-29s arrived).

Runners up early war (1939-1942)
For the early war, I like the A-20C, the Kawasaki Ki-48, the Nakajima Ki-49, the Martin 167 and 187, the Ju 88, the LeO 451, and the Pe-2

The A-20C was very fast for the early war, around 330 mph, with a high cruising speed. Small bomb load but with their good handling they could be used in fairly accurate low level attacks. Tended to make it back to base especially if flying with escorts or at night. They were useful for the Americans, the British, and the Russians, both over land and in a Maritime context.

The K-48, which looked almost exactly like a Hampden, was also quite fast, 314 mph, had armor unlike most Japanese bombers, had excellent handling, and very good range (1,500 miles). Very small bomb load of 1700 lbs / 800 kg and lightly armed, and it just seemed not to be made in very large numbers.

The Ki-49 was also fast (306 mph) and like the Ki-48, had armor and self sealing tanks (the Japanese Army seemed to figure out the need for this faster than the Navy). Power to mass (0.21) and wind loading (31 lbs) were better than most fighters. Bomb load was slightly better than the Ki-49 (2200 lbs / 1000 kg) and it was fairly heavily armed. They proved to be fairly vulnerable to P-40s though and not many were made (they were made through the war but production seemed to be at a very slow pace). I still think it was a good design with a lot of potential.

The Martin 167 "Maryland" and 187 "Baltimore" were very nice bombers, the 167 counting probably as a light bomber more ideal for recon, though it was used in the medium bomber role (attacking Axis airfields etc.). The Maryland could do 304 mph and had a 1,300 mile range, with some substantial forward armament and good performance and maneuverability (wing loading 28.5 lbs, power / mass 0.157) only carried 2,000 lbs of bombs. There was even an Ace flying Marylands, the marvelous eccentric Englishman Adrian Warburton who was unfortunately killed in action in 1944.

The Martin 187 / Baltimore, another of the "airforce that could have been- Le sigh" which was supposed to go to France, was a really scrappy little plane which n my opinion, is the aircraft that the B-26 was trying to be and should have been. It had the same speed and power as a Maryland, though a higher wing loading. It became effectively a British plane, produced by the Americans but to British specs (and sometimes modified by the Brits in the field), and rather than loading it down with ten machine guns, 7 crew, and all kinds of other stuff they didn't really need, they up-gunned it just enough with a .50 cal dorsal turret. It carried a small (2000 lbs) bomb load, but seemed to be able to bomb accurately. More valuable though was that it had a very high survival rate, once they were being escorted by fighters, it had the best survival rate in the MTO. Part of the secret was apparently speed. The Baltimore airframe was apparently very stable and vibration -free at high speeds. After they attacked their target (often an Axis air base) they would go into a high speed shallow dive and fly away at as much as 400 mph, while their escort mixed it up with the 109s and 202s. Post war they were used for high mach number dive testing. The main downside of this aircraft is they were hard to fly, requiring substantial skill for takeoffs especially.

The Ju 88 of course, I don't have to introduce or explain. They did poorly in the BoB and seemed to take a while to find their legs. They couldn't really use them as true dive bombers (after while they realized that the wings were getting bent in the steep dive pull-outs) but even as a 'glide bomber' they seemed pretty accurate, and their performance was good enough to often evade older fighters like Hurricanes and Fulmars. They seemed to excel in the maritime role. Made good heavy fighters and night fighters too as we know.

The Pe 2 also impresses me with it's accuracy and fairly high survival rate (at least by the dismal standards of the Russian Front). It wasn't as good as a mosquito by any means but it seemed to hit relatively small targets like German flak guns on a fairly routine basis. It could dive bomb, it was fast (330-340 mph) and carried a decent payload for such a fast plane (2200 lbs / 1000 kilo). I'd like some of these in my air armada if I had a choice.

LeO 45 gets honorable mention. Quite fast for 1940 at 308 mph, and somewhat heavily armed with a 20mm defensive cannon. There must have been something good about it because the Germans took at least a mild interest in it.

I like the B-25 too of course. It proved very versatile in both the MTO and Pacific, and was equally good at smashing up German airfields or sinking Japanese ships. But it wasn't that fast and at least against the Germans, it really needed fighter escorts to have a good survival rate. It's size and relatively slow speed precluded it from being used that much over Northern Europe, due to the ferocity of German light-AA.

Runners up late war (1943-1945)
For the late war, I like the A-20G, the A-26, the Ki-67, the Tu-2

I think the A-20G may be a pretty good rival to the A-26, it's a very thorough upgrade of the A-20 and was available a lot earlier. 325 mph, good power to mass (for a bomber), twin .50s in the dorsal turret, 6 x .50s in the nose cone. They were quite devastating against the Japanese. They liked them better than the A-26 in the Pacific apparently because they had better visibility from the cockpit. A-26 was faster though, at ~ 350 mph (nominally) it was the only other Allied bomber I know of which even comes close to the Mosquito. They were used with some success from Italy and in the Balkans. Quite heavily armed too and relatively small. The only real flaw was that it came late (fall 1944 in Europe) in relatively small numbers.

Honorable mention goes to the Ar 234 - ingenious design and quite beautiful to look at, though slower with bombs on I think and was barely in the war. Ju 388 also beautiful aircraft, and I have read some accounts by Allied pilots describing spotting them but being unable to catch them as they were seen pulling away with their Mw/50 or Nitro or whatever. Maybe some of those crews survived the war thanks to that.

EDIT: Amended light bombers per feedback -
 
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A medium bomber is a plane that can carry more than a typical fighter bomber (often about 2,000 lbs) and carry it a bit further than most fighter bombers can fly (say close to 1,000 miles nominal range).
I'd like to add the benefit of a co-pilot or navigator. A P-47 or P-38 fighter can carry more than 2,000 lbs. of bombs to ranges matching smaller medium bombers. A good medium bomber needs someone else onboard to share the workload.
 
The Pe 2 also impresses me with it's accuracy and fairly high survival rate (at least by the dismal standards of the Russian Front). It wasn't as good as a mosquito by any means but it seemed to hit relatively small targets like German flak guns on a fairly routine basis. It could dive bomb, it was fast (330-340 mph) and carried a decent payload for such a fast plane (2200 lbs / 1000 kilo).

I'm not sure that Pe-2 demonstrated better accuracy than (for example) A-20.
330 mph - just one of the earlier versions (series 31, I think). Empty, of course.
Dive bombing - a minority of pilots could do that even in 1944. Probably, there was no regular dive-bombing in Pe-2 until Ivan Polbin took the matter in his hands in 1943.
1000 kg - probably just as an exception. 600 kg was the typical bomb load.
 
Yeah those are all good points. Agility definitely does matter - aside from the Mosquito it seemed to help the Stuka, the D3A, the SBD, and the A-20. Though I would still say speed and /or altitude matters more. Co-pilot or (especially I think) navigator also does make a big difference. Light bombers like the Maryland and Hudsons were often used as pathfinders for other bombers or even fighters.

Dive bombing may have been somewhat rare in Pe-2s, it wasn't as common as you might think with even SBDs (only the Navy pilots seemed to know how to do it) but so far as I know, they never did it in A-20s, and not everybody did the nap of the earth / masttop / skip bombing either. I seem to remember some German accounts of Pe 2 attacks with rather eyebrow raising precision earlier than 1943 but I'd have to go double check.

LW bombers generally didn't have the greatest survival rate in the West or MTO, though I think they did a lot better in the East. However that said, I know some Stuka units managed to keep casualties pretty low by a variety of means (including dropping their bombs and running at the first sign of Allied fighters)
 
The Ki-48 and Ki-49 were also supposed to be highly agile, as was the Maryland and the Lockheed Hudson which survived some duels with A6M. Any other highly agile light or medium bombers I missed?
 
The Ki-48 and Ki-49 were also supposed to be highly agile, as was the Maryland and the Lockheed Hudson which survived some duels with A6M. Any other highly agile light or medium bombers I missed?

Ki-48 should be agile - it was small-ish for a 2-egined bomber (size about Bf-110, granted with deeper fuselage), it was light, and bombload (400-500 kg max, unless in Kamikaze set-up) was very light.
 
Ki-48 should be agile - it was small-ish for a 2-egined bomber (size about Bf-110, granted with deeper fuselage), it was light, and bombload (400-500 kg max, unless in Kamikaze set-up) was very light.

Yes I think it had a much better power to weight and wing-loading than a 110 as well
 
For the PE-2 the bomb load was 600kg internal. Six 100kg bombs, two of which were the engine nacelles.
The 1000 kg load was external, four 250 kg bombs or two 500kg bombs
At which point speedand range depart from most published numbers.
 
Trouble is that most bomber vs fighter combats were not "Mano a Mano" but most often formation vs formation, at least to start.
Bomber formations, for most mutual protection (or hoping the fighters shoot at the plane just off your wing tip) have to stay together and that means flying at best cruising speed of the slowest aircraft in the formation minus a fudge factor for maneuvering. As in formation makes a 30 degree turn to the right. Plane/s on the left side of the formation have to speed up to maintain formation (or right side planes slow down), If they don't have enough surplus power they will get left behind at least for a few minutes and we know what happens to stranglers.

Yes, even in the BoB a number of bombers got separated from their formation/s and were attacked as single aircraft. But depending on high speed dashes usually means small formations.

Point on the PE-2 was that it is often overrated due to the bomb load and claimed speed. It did do a lot of good work for the Soviets but it wasn't flying at 330mph with 1000kg of bombs.

SOme of these aircraft had pretty miserable defensive armament. Japanese in particular had some extremely poor setups.
Some of their bombers also have split personalities. There were often major difference between the early versions and the later versions.

Ki-48 Is used an engine with a single speed supercharger (1000hp for take off and 980hp at 9,845ft) and speed was 298mph at 11,485 ft.
Normal bomb load was 300kg (six 50 kg bombs) and the defensive armament was dismal, one 7.7mm machime gun out the nose, one out the top back and one out ventral position.
However these among the worst machine guns used by a major power in WWII, cycle rate 750rpm anda 69 round drum/pan magazine. A Vickers K gun fired at 1000rpm and used a 96 shot drum/pan for example.
The KI 48 I had no armor and no fuel tank protection.
The KI 48 II (production start April 1942) got an engine with 2 speed supercharger, 1130hp for take off, 1070 hp 9,185 ft and 950hp at 18,375 ft. However the empty weight went up about 500kg (12%) with the stronger construction, armor, protected tanks and better equipment. Normal bomb load went to 800kg. Max bomb load went from 400kg to 800kg.
By 1943 the KI 48 had two of those poor machine guns in the nose, one still in the ventral position and single 12.7mm Type I MG in the dorsal position.

The KI 49 was a dog, Crews thought the KI 21 flew better. Defensive armament was poor, five of those poor 7.7mm machine guns in the nose, ventral, tail and beam positions with a single 20mm cannon in the dorsal position.......however..................the Japanese army 20mm Ho-1 cannon while fairly powerful, had a slow rate of fire (400rpm) and was feed from 15 round drums when used in flexible mounts (about 2 seconds of firing time).
The KI 49 I was another plane powered by engines with a single speed supercharger. It did have armor and protected tanks from the start but using an eight man crew to deliver a normal bomb load of 750kg and a max of 1000kg seems like a pretty poor return.
The KI 49 II got more powerful engines, and the nose, ventral and tail guns were replaced by 12.7mm Type 1 (Ho-103) machine guns. But it doesn't start to leave the factory until Sept of 1942.
 
Trouble is that most bomber vs fighter combats were not "Mano a Mano" but most often formation vs formation, at least to start.
Bomber formations, for most mutual protection (or hoping the fighters shoot at the plane just off your wing tip) have to stay together and that means flying at best cruising speed of the slowest aircraft in the formation minus a fudge factor for maneuvering. As in formation makes a 30 degree turn to the right. Plane/s on the left side of the formation have to speed up to maintain formation (or right side planes slow down), If they don't have enough surplus power they will get left behind at least for a few minutes and we know what happens to stranglers.

Yes, especially if they are relying on their guns etc. to any extent, they typically do need to be in formation so they can concentrate their firepower. However for less well armed and protected bombers this was pretty cold comfort, and in fact turned out to be worse than evading on their own. That is how it went with many aircraft that relied on agility to some extent to survive - for example Stukas got slaughtered flying in formation in the BoB, but did better in the MTO and Russia by evading wildly with sharp twisting turns, and using tricks like making smoke as they dived away. Many bombers that came into the target area in formation left in a much more chaotic way. This was also true for D3As and SBDs quite often in the Pacific, and for fighter bombers as well.

SOme of these aircraft had pretty miserable defensive armament. Japanese in particular had some extremely poor setups.
Some of their bombers also have split personalities. There were often major difference between the early versions and the later versions.

Ki-48 Is used an engine with a single speed supercharger (1000hp for take off and 980hp at 9,845ft) and speed was 298mph at 11,485 ft.
Normal bomb load was 300kg (six 50 kg bombs) and the defensive armament was dismal, one 7.7mm machime gun out the nose, one out the top back and one out ventral position.
(snip)
The KI 49 was a dog, Crews thought the KI 21 flew better. Defensive armament was poor, five of those poor 7.7mm machine guns in the nose, ventral, tail and beam positions with a

A dog compared to what precisely? We are talking early war, right? JAAF pilots may have preferred the light as a feather Ki-21, but neither the Ki-48 and 49 were "dogs" by the standards of the early war, and an armament of 3-5 x LMG was pretty standard for bombers in 1940-42. Having a 12.7 or 20mm dorsal gun was a pretty good step up.

Why don't we take a closer look at this with one of those charts I like to put together. This is just going to be mostly pulled from Wikipedia since it's after midnight and I need to go to bed, so don't crucify if any of this is slightly off. I think this is a fairly comprehensive list of other light and medium 2 engine bombers active before 1943. I only left out the other outliers I mentioned above.

Anyway, lets compare a few types contemporaneous to the Ki-48 and 49

Bomber ------------ Speed --Cruise Spd--- Ceiling ---- Range ---- Guns ------------------- Bomb Load
Bristol Blenheim IV--- 260 ------198--------- 27,000 ------1460 ---- 4-5 x LMG --------------- 1200 lbs (dorsal turret)
Handley P. Hampden-247-------206--------- 19,000 ------1720 ---- 3-5 x LMG --------------- 4000 lbs (the LMGs are Vickers K guns with 60 round mags)
Armstr. W. Whitley----230 ------ ??? ---------26,000 ------1650-----4 x LMG ------------------3000 lbs (turret in tail)
Vickers Wellington IC-235 ------ ??? ---------18,000 ------ 2500-----6 x LMG ----------------- 4500 lbs (turret in tail and nose)
Tupolev SB------------280 ------???--------- 30,000 ------ 1400 ---- 4 x LMG ----------------- 1320 lbs
Illyushin DB3 --------- 273 ------??? ---------31,000 ------ 2400 ---- 3 x LMG, 1 x 20mm ----- 5500 lbs
Illyushin IL-4---------- 250 ------ ?? --------- 28,500 ------ 2400 ---- 2 x LMG, 1 HMG--------- 6000 lbs
Fiat BR 20------------- 270------ 210 -------- 26,000 ------ 1710 ---- 3 x HMG ---------------- 3500 lbs (dorsal turret)
Do-17Z ---------------255 ------ 190-------- 26,000 ------- 628 ----- 6 x LMG ----------------- 2200 lbs
HE 111H-6------------ 270------ 230 -------- 21,300 ------ 1400---4 x LMG 1 x 20mm, 1 HMG-4400 lbs
Ju 88 A4 -------------- 290 ------230 -------- 26,900 ------ 1100 -----5 x LMG ----------------- 3000 lbs (could carry more bombs at short range)
Lockheed Hudson---- 246 ------220 -------- 25,000 ------ 1960 ----- 2 x LMG ---------------- 1400 lbs (also has 2 x fixed forward LMG guns)
N. American B-25C--- 284 ------233 -------- 21,000 ------ 1500 -----1 x LMG, 4 x HMG ------ 3000 lbs
Mitsubishi G3M ------ 233 ------ 170-------- 30,200 ------ 2700 -----1 x 20mm, 4 x LMG ----- 1800 lbs (or a torpedo)
Mitsubishi G4M ------ 266 ------ 196-------- 28,000 -------1700---- 1x 20mm, 4 x LMG------- 2204 lbs (or a torpedo)
Mitsubishi Ki-21 -IIb- 301 ------ 240 ------- 33,000 -------1700---- 1 x HMG, 4 x LMG ------- 2200 lbs

Kawasaki Ki-48-IIa --- 314-------??? --------- 33,100 ------ 1500 ----3 x LMG ----------------- 1764 lbs
Nakajima Ki-49-IIa ---306------ 220 --------- 30,500 -------1200 ---- 5 x LMG, 1 x 20mm -----2200 lbs
Nakajima Ki-49-IIb ---------------------------------------------------- 2 x LMG, 3 x HMG, 1 x 20mm-----

So based on the above, I would conclude the following:

Ki 84 and 49 are both outstanding in speed, extremely fast compared to most contemporaries. Both have unusually high service ceiling. I'd say performance looks good and I don't see a dog here - unless maybe a grayhound. Range is about average to low (but still pretty good). Armament of the Ki-48 is slightly below average, but within the typical range. Armament for the Ki-49 is quite good, especially the IIb version (available in 1942). Only the B-25 and maybe the He 111 was more heavily armed.

It's also worth pointing out, one of the least well armed aircraft on the list above, the Lockheed Hudson, was notoriously difficult to shoot down because it was agile, had forward firing guns, and apparently the defensive guns they did have were effective. Light armament does not always equate to extreme vulnerability. Bomb load is low but I already stipulated that. They didn't need to carry huge bomb loads as they were not "de-housing" cities or anything like that.


One more thing I wanted to add, the G4M "Betty" did not have a single flash in the pan with the sinking of the Repulse and the Prince of Wales, they continued to harass Allies air bases around Port Moresby and in the Solomons and were part of the ongoing raids against Darwin, taking good advantage of their relatively high altitude performance and excellent range to continue to plague the Allies with strike after strike. I don't think you could call them a failure. Most twin-engined bombers in WW2 proved to have fairly high attrition rates, this includes the ones we think of as good like the Ju 88 or the B-25.
 
I can appreciate the work that goes into making such a list,

However we are back to Wiki often listing the maximums in some categories.
and sometimes not.
The Whitley for instance could carry 7000lb of bombs just not anywhere near 1650 miles. It could however hold that 7000lbs all internal. It also had five guns not four.
The Whitley was more of a two heavy than a medium bomber however.
Not all LMGs were created equal.
Japanese Army LMG, 750rpg, 69 round pan magazine.
British Vickers K gun 1000rpm 96 (not 60) round pan magazine.
British .303 Browning 1200rpm belt feed
Russian ShKAS 7.62mm 1800rpm belt feed. But the belt boxes/feeds seldom held more than 200 rounds. Boxes could be changed.
German 7.92mm MG 15, 1000rpm 75 round saddle drum
Japanese Navy LMG, a clone of the WW I Lewis gun 600 rpm and 47 or 97 round pan magazines.

On the JU 88 one gunner was responsible for three guns and on the Do 17Z one gunner was responsible for 4 guns. Not quite the firepower the numbers would indicate.

For the British, the Hudson managed to have good survival rate in part due to it's propellers. Most of the Hudsons except the first few hundred had fully feathering props which meant the plane was much more likely to make it home on on one engine. Putting the prop on a dead engine to coarse pitch on a two pitch prop wasn't anywhere near the reduction in drag, even if the propeller brake worked. ANd having the choice of either fine pitch (take-off) or coarse pitch (high speed) didn't give the pilot a good choice for a high power low speed cruise on one engine, some of these planes wouldn't stay in th eair on one engine. at least not for long.
 
...

Ki-48 Is used an engine with a single speed supercharger (1000hp for take off and 980hp at 9,845ft) and speed was 298mph at 11,485 ft.
Normal bomb load was 300kg (six 50 kg bombs) and the defensive armament was dismal, one 7.7mm machime gun out the nose, one out the top back and one out ventral position.
However these among the worst machine guns used by a major power in WWII, cycle rate 750rpm anda 69 round drum/pan magazine. A Vickers K gun fired at 1000rpm and used a 96 shot drum/pan for example.
The KI 48 I had no armor and no fuel tank protection.
The KI 48 II (production start April 1942) got an engine with 2 speed supercharger, 1130hp for take off, 1070 hp 9,185 ft and 950hp at 18,375 ft. However the empty weight went up about 500kg (12%) with the stronger construction, armor, protected tanks and better equipment. Normal bomb load went to 800kg. Max bomb load went from 400kg to 800kg.
By 1943 the KI 48 had two of those poor machine guns in the nose, one still in the ventral position and single 12.7mm Type I MG in the dorsal position.

Japanese Wikipedia lists 300kg max (early - I?) up to 500 (-II? version) for the Ki-48. TAIC manual (available on this site) lists 400 kg (880 lbs) for the -II.
Seems to me that only time Ki-48 carried the stipulated 800 kg of bombs was if there was to be one-way mission.
 
Can I suggest an arbitrary and capricious rule to split light bomber from medium. A medium should be a twin engine and needs a bomb sight and a dedicated crewman to operate it. If it's got a solid nose stuffed with guns it's a light bomber.
 
I can appreciate the work that goes into making such a list,

However we are back to Wiki often listing the maximums in some categories.
and sometimes not.
The Whitley for instance could carry 7000lb of bombs just not anywhere near 1650 miles. It could however hold that 7000lbs all internal. It also had five guns not four.
The Whitley was more of a two heavy than a medium bomber however.
Not all LMGs were created equal.
Japanese Army LMG, 750rpg, 69 round pan magazine.
British Vickers K gun 1000rpm 96 (not 60) round pan magazine.
British .303 Browning 1200rpm belt feed
Russian ShKAS 7.62mm 1800rpm belt feed. But the belt boxes/feeds seldom held more than 200 rounds. Boxes could be changed.
German 7.92mm MG 15, 1000rpm 75 round saddle drum
Japanese Navy LMG, a clone of the WW I Lewis gun 600 rpm and 47 or 97 round pan magazines.

On the JU 88 one gunner was responsible for three guns and on the Do 17Z one gunner was responsible for 4 guns. Not quite the firepower the numbers would indicate.

For the British, the Hudson managed to have good survival rate in part due to it's propellers. Most of the Hudsons except the first few hundred had fully feathering props which meant the plane was much more likely to make it home on on one engine. Putting the prop on a dead engine to coarse pitch on a two pitch prop wasn't anywhere near the reduction in drag, even if the propeller brake worked. ANd having the choice of either fine pitch (take-off) or coarse pitch (high speed) didn't give the pilot a good choice for a high power low speed cruise on one engine, some of these planes wouldn't stay in th eair on one engine. at least not for long.

Right, but I figure people can fill in some of the blanks. Point being that he Ki-48 isn't a whole lot worse armed than a Do 17 or an early Ju 88... or a Whitley or a Hampden etc.

Also just one point of context, whereas I would definitely prefer to have a ShKAS or a ShVAK than a Japanese type 89 or type 92 machine gun, (or a Vickers K or a Lewis gun for that matter, all of which were also used well into the mid-war) and a higher ROF and more bullets are definitely better, a few things to consider.

Light machine guns (or any machine guns) especially some of these older types, heat up very rapidly and can't be used continuously anyway. You try to shoot through a belt of 200 rounds in one go you, especially with odd G-forces, you might very likely end up with a jam. Shorter bursts are better.

Fighters didn't typically get in sustained shootouts with bombers. Unless the fighter pilot was very inexperienced, they would typically be approaching very rapidly from an odd angle and then flash by in a matter of seconds. Slowly approaching from the rear was a recipe for getting bullets through your windscreen. So having a 60 or 80 round magazine wasn't necessarily totally inadequate. Would I prefer a belt fed M2 ? I definitely would. A power turret with two of them would be even better. But solving the puzzle of aircraft design was and still is a balancing act. You cant get everything you want. Gradually they improved the armament when they could.

Bottom line I don't see any of the Japanese mediums as 'dogs' - they may have had comparatively light bomb loads but it was enough to terrorized China, Burma and Indnoesia, to shatter Allied bases in Malaysia and Philippines, to sink a lot of ships, wreck Darwin and cause a lot of havoc at Port Moresby and Henderson Field on more than one occasion, even if they didn't ultimately win those fights.

Bomb tonnage is great - if you hit your target. But one of the most difficult lessons of airpower which we still struggle to grasp (though the military has gotten vastly better at it) is that no amount of bombs matters if it doesn't hit the target. You can drop 10,000 lbs of bombs but if you navigated to the wrong city, it does no good. And if you dropped it 300 meters from your target, in some cases that might as well be 300 miles because it doesn't have any significant effect, other than to make a big mess. Or kill some civilians.
 
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Another angle on the 'bomb tonnage' thing - some targets, no matter how hard you hit them, can and will be repaired. So they have to be hit again. And again. Surviving a raid becomes that much more important. If you have a squadron of bombers at Lae and want to hit Port Morseby, no matter how much damage you do it's going to get fixed. They will fill in the holes with dirt, bring in more supplies and aircraft, and start over. So you need to go back. Same also applies to some strategic targets like Ploesti.. so is it better to send in the B-24s at low altitude or does a raid by Mosquito or even Pe 2s make more sense?

According to this article, there was a successful raid by a very small force of Pe 2s against Ploesti in 1941. Each Pe 2 carried 2 x FAB 250 bombs (each with 105 kg of TNT per bomb) for a total bomb weight of only 1102 lbs per aircraft. The target was a bridge with an oil pipeline. A previous attempt (Aug 10) had failed, angering Stalin so they were extra motivated for the second raid! The distance was 725 km each way trip. On this Aug 13, mission, they hit the bridge 5 times and severed the oil pipeline, creating a significant headache for the Germans. All six Pe 2 made it back (they made it back from the first raid as well). Soviet sources claim the Germans lost a half million lbs of fuel from the pipeline break.

Similarly, on Aug 10, 1941, as the Soviet Army was reeling from German attacks, they sent the same 6 Pe-2s to attack a bridge over the Dnieper. They hit it five times. Their 250 kg bombs were not heavy enough to wreck the whole (double-layered) bridge, but they did sever the upper rail bridge, thus cutting the rail link, which was not fixed until a year later. This small attack created a supply bottleneck which was believed to have effected the outcome at Stalingrad. It wasn't fixed until fall of 1943. All six Pe 2s made it back from that raid too.

To me this is a good illustration of how precision bombing was possible, (and by the way, at least some Pe 2 pilots seemed to be able to dive bomb accurately in 1941) and it was probably a more efficient way to do damage to the enemy. Whether it really could have been organized where you had large scale precision bombing is of course, another matter. These fast, accurate types of bombers never seemed to be available in enough numbers. Last time we debated this it was suggested that substantially expanding production of Mosquitoes (such as via American or Canadian factories) would have been impoissible due to the rarity of balsa wood or the difficulty of getting it out of Ecuador. I don't buy that necessarily but I do think they were trying to make as many Mossies as they could, maybe they couldn't have ramped it up much more for who knows what reasons.

But I think we forget the lesson of WW2, Korea and Vietnam at our peril. "Moving mud" with bombs isn't how wars are won, necessarily.
 
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