Best naval fighter

[Lightning Guy]

In a traditional, turning fight, yes the Corsair is dead. But the pilot of a Corsair has the advantage of avoiding that kinda fight because of his speed. There is nothing the Shiden can to do force a Corsair into a dogfight.

 

[cheddar cheese]

yup, being a wimp and fleeing is much more sensible than staying to fight and die

 

[Lightning Guy]

Because that is what good pilots did. You NEVER fight to your enemy's strengths and you NEVER fight where you enemy has the advantage (if you can at all avoid it). The Corsair had all of the advantages that allowed it to choose when and where the fight occurred.

 

[plan_D]

If you're escorting bombers running isn't an option. Or if the Shiden is escorting bombers running isn't an option. You fight to either get your bombers through, or stop theres.

And the Shiden could get out of the way of a diving Corsair, turning would be able to get out of the way, if the Shiden pilot sees his opponent.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

which was very likely, the japs gave the shiden to all their remeining aces, they knew what they were doing..............

 

[Lightning Guy]

Which again means a better pilot NOT a better plane. And you don't have to completely run away to be successful escorting. Again, look at the records of the Hellcat, Corsair, and Lightning. They all did perfectly well escorting bombers against more maneuverable Zeroes. And did every miss my post in the Aces thread about the AVG? They PROVED that maneuverability isn't everything in a fight and maneuverability was the only advantage the Shiden had over the Corsair.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

as wel as better armourment...................

 

[Lightning Guy]

Barely. The P-40s of the AVG were only armed with 2x.50cals and 4x.30cals. Hardly overwhelming firepower.

If you won't believe me, maybe you will believe Saburo Sakai. "The Lightning's great speed, its sensational high altitude performace, and especially its ability to dive and climb much faster that the Zero presented insuperable problems for our fliers. The P-38 pilots, flying at great height, chose when and where they wanted to fight with disastrous results for our own men." I know he was talking about P-38 v Zero but Corsair v Shiden would have presented exactly the same situation.

And to borrow from your logic, I guess the Mosquito must have been a death trap when fighting a 190 since the 190 easily beats the Mossie in a turning fight.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

i'm talking about the shiden, the shiden had better armourment................

 

[Lightning Guy]

But armament doesn't change the fact that the Corsair picks when are where the battle occurs.

 

[plan_D]

You can't pick where to fight when on an escort mission, or if attacking an escorted formation. You have to fight, or you've failed when the bombers start dropping like flies.
The Mosquito didn't enjoy meeting FW190s, lets put it that way. And we never said the Corsair was a death trap against the Shiden, just that the Shiden was better.

 

[Lightning Guy]

Even on an escort mission, the Corsair can use it's speed to disengage. Not totally run away, but pull out of range until it can turn back on the Shiden. And if it's an escort situation consider this 1) the Shiden will be focusing on attacking bombers, not the Corsairs and 2) depending on the type of bomber being escorted, the altitude can be quite high and the Shiden was lousy at alititude.

 

[plan_D]

If it's on an escort mission and it pulls out that gives the Shiden a lot of time to concentrate on the bombers. There might be two groups, one for the fighters and one for the bombers, the Corsairs need to be there to hold them, not run away enough to turn back in.

When attacking the Corsair needs to be able to take down the bombers, you can't keep going up and down all the time especially at altitude. You need to be getting those bombers, while trying to (and failing) outturn a Shiden on your tail.

 

[Lightning Guy]

There can be two groups of Corsiars. The take shifts diving down and forcing the Shidens to break away from their attacks on the bombers. In general, the turning dogfight was made obsolete by the American tactics.

 

[plan_D]

If one group of Shiden was chasing the first group that dived, the second gets dived on but doesn't pursue that's two groups of Corsairs leaving to come back around with one group of Shiden caught in between and the other group mauling the bombers

 

[Lightning Guy]

Either way we have digressed to an argument on tactics rather than on which plane was better.

 

[plan_D]

Well your argument is that the American tactics (which were very good to combat the Japs) was what could beat the Corsair, this does not make it the better plane.

 

[Lightning Guy]

And you argument that the Shiden was better are dependant on the tactics the Japanese use.

 

[plan_D]

There we go then..so it seems this isn't going anywhere...

 

[Lightning Guy]

My whole point is that the advantages of the Corsair (coupled with the right tactics) allow if to avoid combat that favored the Shiden. The Shiden doesn't have that luxury. It can't run away from trouble.