Best Piston Engined Fighter Ever

[Saberstrike]

The Vought F4U Corsair. It downed Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-15s, and it was one of the most feared-by-Axis aircraft in WW II, alng with the P-38 Lightning...

 

[davparlr]

Man I'll tell ya, I feel that way all the time.... I've met Joe Foss twice and now after all these years, those conversations are all but forgotten....

I do now take the time to talk to a new friend who was in the Marines and fought at Guadal Canal, Tarawa, and Iwo Jima (where he was shot).

My neighbor, when I was a kid, was on a destroyer at Okinawa and it took a Kamakazi. He was in a 5" turret that was hit. All was killed except him and one other out of 25. I never talked to him about it.

 

[Matt308]

The Vought F4U Corsair. It downed Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-15s, and it was one of the most feared-by-Axis aircraft in WW II, alng with the P-38 Lightning...

Mig-15. Not Mig-15"s". Reference Folmar. He was subsequently shot down by his MiG kill wingman.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yeap on 10 Sept. 1952. CPT. Follmar became the only Corsair pilot to shoot down a Mig-15 when the Mig got into a turning fight with him. As Matt said, the wingman of the Mig pilot quickly shot Folmar down who bailed out and was rescued.

 

[JoeB]

MiG-15's also downed two USN F4U's in October 1952 in separate incidents, so 1:3. The Corsair victory is confirmed in a specific Communist account. As usual I don't see the real significance of the Corsair, or Sea Fury, or Skyraider, having claimed swept wing jets. Laudable individual achievements but they don't prove much about the planes. Any reasonably capable prop would have an opportunity in such a combat if the jet slows down and turns with it, though again depending on pilot gunnery skill and/or luck (probably a fairly long range, high deflection shot would still be required). A Sea Fury was also downed the same day as their claim (which may well be valid but there's no known Communist account specifically confirming it), and 3 Skyraiders were downed by MiG's in SEA in separate incidents v 2 MiG-17's claimed by Skyraiders (at least one of which is confirmed in Vietnamese accounts).

As on another recent thread a Chinese La-11 also put holes in an F-86, (November 30 1951 Chinese pilot Wang Tianbao of the PLAAF 2nd Fighter Regiment claimed an F-86 downed, and F-86E 50-680 of the 4th FIW suffered 'major damage' from an 'La-9' per US records). When last I brought that up the response, after denying it was so because it's not an endlessly repeated incident like the Western ones, was "oh that doesn't prove anything". Right, it really doesn't, the big picture of that combat was 3 La-11's downed v no F-86's. But nor do any of the others prove much, except positive reflection on the particular prop pilots.

Joe

 

[renrich]

I am a Corsair fan but agree that downing one Mig 15 isn't very signicant. However, I would vote for the F4U 4-5 being the best piston engined fighter ever. To me, what is significant, is when a US Navy CAP in F9F-5s, either 2 or 3 of them took on 7 Mig 15s and shot down two Migs and damaged another and all Panthers returned to the boat. The Mig pilots radio transmissions were recorded and some of the pilots were speaking Russian.

 

[lesofprimus]

I think its more important that a few prop jobs shot down a couple of Migs than the other way around....

 

[JoeB]

To me, what is significant, is when a US Navy CAP in F9F-5s, either 2 or 3 of them took on 7 Mig 15s and shot down two Migs and damaged another and all Panthers returned to the boat. The Mig pilots radio transmissions were recorded and some of the pilots were speaking Russian.

USN Panthers met MiG's on 6 different days in the Korean war, and their opponents were the Soviet AF in every case. The Panthers downed 5 (confirmed in Soviet accounts) and lost none. Marine Panthers met MiG's 5 times, Soviet in 3, Chinese in one, not sure about the other. They lost one Panther (to the Soviets) without scoring. The November 18 1952 case you refer to was different from the US side in that the USN *knew* the opponents had to be Soviet since they'd taken off from inside the USSR so it was considered senstive. From the Soviet side that particular unit was not at the time officially committed to Korea (later on it did a tour actually) but the losses were <1% of just their own MiG-15 air combat losses in Korea so not as special for them (4 MiG's were actually present v 3 Panthers; the Panthers were credited with 2 MiG's and dam/probable but only one of the MiG's returned to base; one Panther was hit but returned safely).

Re: MiG's downing props not being a big deal, who ever said it was? But the fluke incidents by Western props have been repeated in canned form for so long, tending to omit more numerous prop losses to the MiG's, some people seem to actually think prop planes were taking on MiG-15's in Korea on generally favorable terms, which wasn't the case (especially adding in a number of F-51's lost to MiG's without MiG losses), of course.

Joe

 

[lesofprimus]

some people seem to actually think prop planes were taking on MiG-15's in Korea on generally favorable terms

I dont think theres anyone here who feels that way, atleast the guys who have been here long enough to know better...

 

[FLYBOYJ]

No one in their right mind would think a "prop" aircraft (the more correct term would be "recip") of WW2 vintage could take on a Mig-15 or F-86 on favorable terms, but here's something to consider...

As stated in earlier posts, first and second generation turbine aircraft were notorious for having poor engine spool up times. The Mig-15 accelerated well but when slowed down to speeds under 350 mph still did not initially accelerate as well when compared to older recip aircraft. A recip aircraft can initially run away from an early turbine aircraft when both aircraft are operated in lower sub-sonic ranges, in other words, speeds at where a P-51, Corsair or even an La-11 thrive. With that said, there is no denying that during the Korean War both UN and communist recip aircraft have scored hits on turbine opponents with the UN seeming to come out ahead in these rare incidents. This seemed to have happened more to communist pilots than UN pilots by the posts reported here in and from combat reports I've read. With THAT said it seems that some of the tactics used by communist pilots were allowing themselves to operate in a regime where the weaknesses of their aircraft were possibly being exploited, knowingly or unknowingly by their opponents. While we could say this is no big deal, I would say during the few occurrences where the turbine aircraft were destroyed by a recip aircraft, it was a matter of pilot skill, bad or good combat decision making (depending on what side of the gun you're on) and of course luck!

It's kind of funny - these rare incidents also happened in Vietnam 15 years later where Skyraiders Shot down Mig-17s on 2 occasions. Rare? Yes. No big deal? Maybe, unless you're on the receiving end and knowing that a "prop" plane just smoked your @ss as you float helplessly in your parachute OR unless you're pilot in that prop plane having a nice big red star being painted on your aircraft while you're being doused with champagne...

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I sure as hell dont. I also dont see anyone here who does except for maybe the guy who thinks the Corsair is the best because it shot down a Mig.

 

[JoeB]

I sure as hell dont. I also dont see anyone here who does except for maybe the guy who thinks the Corsair is the best because it shot down a Mig.

I didn't say you personally did, I don't even know who you are But there's quite a bit more than that one guy. Just two post ago somebody again mentioned A-1's claimed 2 MiG-17's in SEA, didn't say A-1's claimed 2 MiG-17's and MiG's downed 3 A-1's (it's almost never quoted that way).

The unusual incidents of Western prop success against swept wing MiG's are often repeated; the more numerous cases of MiG's downing prop planes (in incidents other than those in which props also claimed) are hardly ever mentioned. I don't think that's debateable, it's obvious. IMO that naturally cumulatively and demonstrably leads to a misimpression not limited to completely uninformed people. You may not be under that misimpression (which I didn't say you were) and your opinion may differ how many others are.

Joe

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I didn't say you personally did,

I was not talking to you either when I said that...

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Just two post ago somebody again mentioned A-1's claimed 2 MiG-17's in SEA, didn't say A-1's claimed 2 MiG-17's and MiG's downed 3 A-1's (it's almost never quoted that way).

I said it and its a fact, witnessed and confirmed...

21 June 1966 by LT Clinton B. Johnson and LTJG Charles W. Hartman III (shared victory) of VA-25, and on 9 October 1966 by LTJG William T. Patton of VA-176.

And the reason why we don't hear about it the other way around becuase in reality it is an oddity and I made that clear in my last post which describes WHY this happens in real terms rather than coming up with a reason to down play it.

 

[davparlr]

As stated in earlier posts, first and second generation turbine aircraft were notorious for having poor engine spool up times. The Mig-15 accelerated well but when slowed down to speeds under 350 mph still did not initially accelerate as well when compared to older recip aircraft.

I remember flying the T-37, which had centrifugal compressors similar to the Mig-15, and trying to accelerate after a stall series. I would run the throttles full forward and wait. First there was a low pitch whine with no increase in thrust, then the whine increased in pitch and after quite a time, the rpm would get into the 90% plus range, then I would start to feel a push in the back. Also, because acceleration was so slow, on final, the T-37 flew with speed brakes out and a gizmo out, called a thrust attenuator (small flaps that extended right behind the engine into the exhaust). This kept the RPMs high and if you had to go around, you pushed the throttles forward and closed the speed brake, which also closed the thrust attenuators. You got good response that way. Of course the T-38 was a whole different bird. When you plugged in the ABs on that plane it just leaped forward.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I remember flying the T-37, which had centrifugal compressors similar to the Mig-15, and trying to accelerate after a stall series. I would run the throttles full forward and wait. First there was a low pitch whine with no increase in thrust, then the whine increased in pitch and after quite a time, the rpm would get into the 90% plus range, then I would start to feel a push in the back. Also, because acceleration was so slow, on final, the T-37 flew with speed brakes out and a gizmo out, called a thrust attenuator (small flaps that extended right behind the engine into the exhaust). This kept the RPMs high and if you had to go around, you pushed the throttles forward and closed the speed brake, which also closed the thrust attenuators. You got good response that way. Of course the T-38 was a whole different bird. When you plugged in the ABs on that plane it just leaped forward.

Great info Dave - I figured the "Tweet" would have some of those characteristics. The worse one I've flown in is a Fouga Magister, that thing is really gutless....

I think you could see how easy it is to get yourself into trouble in such aircraft. Put this it in a combat situation with a low time pilot and the stakes are doubled. One would probably have to analyze each combat scenario to see what each turbine aircraft pilot did to allow himself to get into a firing solution from a recip opponent but its funny as it happened in Vietnam the Mig-17 did have ABs

BTW - According to ACIG a YAK-9 downed an F-80 on July 19, 1950. It seems this is the only one for the Commies during Korea unless JoeB comes up with something else. As far as Communist jet fighters downing UN recip aircraft? (I know there are some who would like to see that) ACIG shows 6 for the Chinese and 9 for the Russians.

 

[davparlr]

Great info Dave - I figured the "Tweet" would have some of those characteristics. The worse one I've flown in is a Fouga Magister, that thing is really gutless....

I think you could see how easy it is to get yourself into trouble in such aircraft. Put this it in a combat situation with a low time pilot and the stakes are doubled. One would probably have to analyze each combat scenario to see what each turbine aircraft pilot did to allow himself to get into a firing solution from a recip opponent but its funny as it happened in Vietnam the Mig-17 did have ABs

BTW - According to ACIG a YAK-9 downed an F-80 on July 19, 1950. It seems this is the only one for the Commies during Korea unless JoeB comes up with something else. As far as Communist jet fighters downing UN recip aircraft? (I know there are some who would like to see that) ACIG shows 6 for the Chinese and 9 for the Russians.

If you kept the rpms up it flew fine. You have to fly it like you drive a small displacement turbo car, gotta keep the rpms up.

 

[mkloby]

It's kind of funny - these rare incidents also happened in Vietnam 15 years later where Skyraiders Shot down Mig-17s on 2 occasions. Rare? Yes. No big deal? Maybe, unless you're on the receiving end and knowing that a "prop" plane just smoked your @ss as you float helplessly in your parachute OR unless you're pilot in that prop plane having a nice big red star being painted on your aircraft while you're being doused with champagne...

 

[Matt308]

Steady...

 

[FLYBOYJ]