Best Piston Engined Fighter Ever...

Best Piston Engined Fighter Ever...

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Davparlr,

The reason I made a Clmax comparison at 600 km/h was to show you that the difference in induced drag is still large at high speed.

The difference between the Ta-152H-1 and the F4U-4 is that the Ta-152H-1 is a dedicated air-superiority fighter/interceptor while the F4U-4 is a multirole fighter-bomber. The Ta-152H has the advantage in speed, climb and maneuverability, however it can't be used in as many roles or carry anywhere near as much equipment as the F4U-4.

The F4U-4 is one of the best multi-role fighters of WW2, with only the FW-190 as a close rival - both are maneuverable, fast, good climbers and can carry an awesome array of weapons.

As to the Ta-152C-1, well this was designed and built for two things only - speed and endurance. However the shortcomings of the design were certainly not something Tank was unaware of, hence why the Ta-152H got absolute priority.
 
Soren said:
Davparlr,

The reason I made a Clmax comparison at 600 km/h was to show you that the difference in induced drag is still large at high speed.

The difference between the Ta-152H-1 and the F4U-4 is that the Ta-152H-1 is a dedicated air-superiority fighter/interceptor while the F4U-4 is a multirole fighter-bomber. The Ta-152H has the advantage in speed, climb and maneuverability, however it can't be used in as many roles or carry anywhere near as much equipment as the F4U-4.

The F4U-4 is one of the best multi-role fighters of WW2, with only the FW-190 as a close rival - both are maneuverable, fast, good climbers and can carry an awesome array of weapons.

As to the Ta-152C-1, well this was designed and built for two things only - speed and endurance. However the shortcomings of the design were certainly not something Tank was unaware of, hence why the Ta-152H got absolute priority.
Click to expand...


I won't argue your conclusion about the F4U-4. I do think the F4U-5 is another story. Also, I understand your point in your example, but I think it misrepresents the performance of induced drag vs lift. I made an Excel chart showing induced drag vs. airspeed in ft/sec at level flight for the Ta-152, F4U-1, and F4U-5. Unfortunately I did not know how to import it into this site. It shows that, at low airspeeds, i.e. high alpha, there is a large difference in drag favoring the Ta-152, but as the airspeed increases, alpha lowers, all curves converge on zero and the differences of the drag becomes quite low. Since, due to g limitation of the pilot, all high speed maneuvering is done at relatively small alpha levels well below Clmax, the excess power of the F4U-5 pretty well negates the L/D advantage of the Ta-152H. My data indicates that, if the Ta-154H pulls more than 4 gs, it starts to equal the energy advantage of the F4U-5 at SL. More gs, and it gets an advantage, all the way up to the 12 or 14 gs that generate Clmax (although neither aircraft could do this). At high altitude, the Ta-152H has no WWII, or any piston powered fighter, equal.

All in all, I doubt that experienced pilots in both planes would not hesitate to take his aircraft against the other, and it would be quite a tussle with the most proficient pilot being the winner, but, I think, at lower levels and higher speeds, the F4U-5 pilot would have a slight advantage in tools, e.g., energy management. At higher altitudes and slower airspeeds, the advantage would swap. It would have been a site to see.
 
What its about at SL when the speed increases is structural integrity and pilot endurance, cause the Ta-152H can easily pull a tighter turn at any speed, however with an increase in speed an increase in G follows, and in this area and in this era the pilot is the weak point.
 
Soren said:
What its about at SL when the speed increases is structural integrity and pilot endurance, cause the Ta-152H can easily pull a tighter turn at any speed, however with an increase in speed an increase in G follows, and in this area and in this era the pilot is the weak point.
Click to expand...

I agree. If the Ta and F4U were stressed to 12 gs, not unreasonable, and they were remote controlled, the F4U could never generate the excess power needed to stay with the Ta, and would have trouble from 4 to 5gs. The pilot is the limiting factor. But that is the envelope they are forced to play in. As altitude goes up, alpha required per g also increases, which moves the Ta into more favorable environment by being closer to that Clmax number. It would pull 4 gs at a higher alpha, and as drag difference increases, it would start eating up the excess power of the F4U which would start bogging down.
 
The excess power of the F4U-4 was minimal however, and wouldn't save it at SL, nomatter the speed. The energy lost in a turn by the F4U-4 is simply so much greater than that lost by the Ta-152H that anything but quick evasive maneuvers, as those used by the Fw-190A against the Spitfire, was a very deadly and onesided gamble to try against the Ta-152H.
 
Soren said:
The excess power of the F4U-4 was minimal however, and wouldn't save it at SL, nomatter the speed. The energy lost in a turn by the F4U-4 is simply so much greater than that lost by the Ta-152H that anything but quick evasive maneuvers, as those used by the Fw-190A against the Spitfire, was a very deadly and onesided gamble to try against the Ta-152H.
Click to expand...

At 25k and top speed, the difference in drag of the Ta-152H and F4U-4 is only 368 lbs in a 3 g turn. However, the title of this site is "Best Piston Fighter Ever", and we were comparing the Ta-152H with the F4U-5, which has significant thrust advantage at this altitude (760 thrust HP, 824 lbs thrust). In addition, it would have a likely higher top speed by 30 mph, and also, a most likely higher dive speed. It would maintain this advantage to SL.

From 25k ft down, and most likely 30k down, the F4U-5 would have more tools for pilot to use against the Ta-152H, than the Ta-152H pilot would have to use against the F4U-5. Also, because of circumstances, the Ta-152H was never able to proved itself as a reliable, dependable aircarft, whereas the F4U-5 was a war proven design of extended life.
 
davparlr said:
All in all, I doubt that experienced pilots in both planes would not hesitate to take his aircraft against the other, and it would be quite a tussle with the most proficient pilot being the winner, but, I think, at lower levels and higher speeds, the F4U-5 pilot would have a slight advantage in tools, e.g., energy management. At higher altitudes and slower airspeeds, the advantage would swap. It would have been a site to see.
Click to expand...

Heck if they are equals I might want to hesitate. I don't like being = in a life and death fight.

If they are equal I will be on the side with twice as many planes in the air and then I am going to cheat.

I am going to stay on the fringes of the fight waiting for some engaged aircraft that have lost velocity due to their manuvering and make a high speed pass to help out my buddy. I don't like fair fights.
 
Nah...just a realist.

I would go fight but would be nervous about it.

I wrestled in college and at least found the more afraid I was of losing the better I did. It was only when fear went away and I got confident that I lost.
When I realised this fact that I would make up things in my head to create fear.

No I don't play video games.

Actually a little bit of nerves can be healthy.

10 years ago I was involved in a shooting and did win and it was the scariest thing that ever happened to me. After that alot of the false bravado was drained from me.

While that was only one incedent I do appreciate the saying from many veterans that soldiers pray for peace and are prepared for war. I do know all do not feel that way.

Nope, I am not a fighter pilot. I do find reading the history of them interesting however.

Are you a fighter pilot?

Cheat...perhaps a poor choice of words but I have read in many stories that many successful figher pilots did not like to get caught up in fur balls and looked for targets of opportunity. In fact I think many kills were just that.
 
Wanting to be hesitant and being hesitant are too different things.
 
Are you a fighter pilot?
Click to expand...
Close, Im a former Navy SEAL....
I have read in many stories that many successful fighter pilots did not like to get caught up in fur balls and looked for targets of opportunity. In fact I think many kills were just that.
Click to expand...
Duh, do u think??? Are u aware that in over 80% of all victories recorded in World War II, the pilot shot down was unaware of his impending doom???

As my Grandfather was a member of the Black Sheep, I can tell u with much certainty that if u hesitated in combat, u died....

Im not even quite sure why u made that original moronic post in the first place, as it made no sense to the converstaion... This conversation and discussion concern 2 compatible aircraft in ideal circumstances, not who was flying, and in what capacity YOU would make the rules???

Oh and another thing:
10 years ago I was involved in a shooting and did win
Click to expand...
Wow.... U won huh??? Was it a fast draw competition??? A spot on the Olympic Team??? Gimmie a break with the false bravado bullsh!t pal... I can smell it 3 miles away...
 
Hancock County Indiana. Circle K convience store. Detective Munden Investigating officer. Ask if it happend. 4 went to prison...not me. You will be able to recognize my name and elements from my handle match.

No false bravado. I would never want to do it again.

It is not much fun to tell the truth and no one believe it.

I thought this would be an interesting place but I find it actually a very rude place.


Please close my account.
This is no place for me.
 
Thin skin makes boy run home.... Awwww

Your wish is my command...
32158.gif
 
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