Best piston engined fighter of 1945?

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Hey, at least he found a way to feel superior today.

I thought we had the black cross superiority thread for that?

 

[Sisu]

It is awfully hard not to go with the P-51D. It was available in quantity, relatively economical to purchase and operate, and effective in all roles from long range escort to recon to ground attack. It did the job, and nobody out there in 1945 had anything in quantity that was as good, let alone better.

As an additional feature, it looked good...

 

[SaparotRob]

Right on all points.

 

[tomo pauk]

It is awfully hard not to go with the P-51D. It was available in quantity, relatively economical to purchase and operate, and effective in all roles from long range escort to recon to ground attack. It did the job, and nobody out there in 1945 had anything in quantity that was as good, let alone better.

As an additional feature, it looked good...

Plus, that example is with black crosses. Even the small ones were adding a few mph each...

 

[Sisu]

So this was less effective? You'd think the word would get around...

 

[BarnOwlLover]

Best or Best Choice - for the person contemplating the execution of airpower to destroy enemy industrial capability, or support of ground forces or project airpower from a fleet?

Personally, I would be evaluating the trade-offs between the P-47M and the P-51H as 'best choice' for me if I had only one choice.

The P-51D/H IMO could have been 'navalized' had the requirement been to operate from carriers - despite USN lack of interest in supporting liquid cooled engines. More accidents than F4U but doable.

The TF-51D could have been modified easier than F7F or P-38M or F4U for night fighter role.

Installing a 1650-9 in a P-51D, swapping 4x20mm for 6x50 cal, operating at 75" w/o water, and removing 85gal fuse tank drives ROC above 4000fpm - not in class of Spit XIV but just how much difference in interceptor role do you need - the so modified D still has much longer range for much larger intercept footprint.

The P-47M drops out with no two seat factory version and longer take off run for short field or carrier ops.

Haven't heard from you in a little while. Been wondering how you've been and what you've been up to as far as your work on Mustang literature.

Anyways, on subject, I do remember that at 67", and about 8900 lbs the P-51D it had over a 4200 fpm climb rate. Granted, 4 20mm cannons and their ammo probably weighs as much or more than 6 .50s, but the 75" or 80" boost and no fuselage tank (or at least empty) should help. I'd image based on some of the info I've seen at World War II aircraft performance we'd be looking at maybe a 4500 fpm climb rate. Not phenomenal like the Spitfire 14 or the P-51H or XP-72 or F8F, but close to Hawker Tempest class.

And as far as the TP-51 night/AW fighter conversion, I wonder how much range would be sacrificed in that role without the rear fuselage tank (for patrols), though if you were using it for shorter ranges/interceptor, that probably doesn't matter much. I'd still rate the F-82 as better (especially the Merlin versions, or if they could get the Allisons to work as intended), but I'm not sure how relevant that is to this portion of the discussion.

Speaking of which, how would a TP-51H be as a two seat fighter? I know that there was no two seat P-51H trainers, but the only known P-51H was made into a two seater the same way as P-51D two seaters were (remove fuel tank, install seat). I think that for what it is, it'd be phenomenal.

 

[Snautzer01]

got to be the P-51D.

Wich version?

 

[bada]

if 2strokes engines are allowed, then i'll go for the me-262 with it's 2 Riedel engines.....

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Wich version?

I don't know, didn't take it down that far.

 

[Admiral Beez]

if 2strokes engines are allowed, then i'll go for the me-262 with it's 2 Riedel engines.....

Aren't the Jumo diesels two-stroke engines? That's something to consider.

 

[Simon Thomas]

I'll be difficult again.
It can't be the P-51D.
The laminar flow aerofoil was great for low drag at cruise, but it had higher drag at high lift coefficients compared to the earlier aerofoils. Thus it was not as good in dogfights.
With the need for long range escort long gone and most combat being at low altitudes, the best fighter would have to be the P-39.
I'll show myself out.

 

[Sisu]

Good looking, too. I've got my coat...

 

[Snautzer01]

Wich version?

SaparotRob North American P-51 Mustang variants - Wikipedia.

There are quite a few D versions.

 

[SaparotRob]

That's why I was laughing.

I'm more than just a pretty face.

 

[GrauGeist]

The Jumo004's Riedell starter engine used a gasoline and oil mixture.

The preferred fuel for the Jumo004B was J2, which was a blend of coal oil and aromatic fuel (like B4 gasoline). It could burn diesel and the Jumo004A did most often operate on diesel fuel.

 

[Snautzer01]

That's why I was laughing.

I'm more than just a pretty face.

 

[drgondog]

There was a P-51D deployed in Europe with a 2nd cockpit behind the pilot's seat and a split bubble canopy, equipped with an air-to-air radar to enable a P-51 formation to spot enemy aircraft at greater distances in DAYLIGHT.

4th FG mod. The 355h had a similar two seat arrangement but no radar.

 

[wuzak]

Aren't the Jumo diesels two-stroke engines? That's something to consider.

No, the Jumos are continuous combustion.

 

[drgondog]

I'll be difficult again.
It can't be the P-51D.
The laminar flow aerofoil was great for low drag at cruise, but it had higher drag at high lift coefficients compared to the earlier aerofoils. Thus it was not as good in dogfights.

True for hgher drag of wing contribution, also true that CLmax was slightly lower than say the Bf 109 or P-38 wing - that said 'dogfight' edge meant what to the LW or IJA? The P-51D proved that speed advantage combined with 'purty gud' manueverability did just fine against all comers - save the one that was a worse dogfighter than the D - namely the Me 262

With the need for long range escort long gone and most combat being at low altitudes, the best fighter would have to be the P-39.
I'll show myself out.

Somehow I missed the memo. I thought the year was 1945? Was there a lot of low level combat over Japan that I missed in my history lessons?

 

[Admiral Beez]

No, the Jumos are continuous combustion.

How does that work? For what it's worth, Wikipedia says it's a 2 stroke.

Junkers Jumo 205 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org