Best radial fighter of '42

renrich · Apr 9, 2009

The IJN typically fought in a shotai of 3 AC. A leader and two wing men. In cruise they were in a vic. In an attack they were in a line astern with about 500 meters separation. The leader would make a run from astern high or high side and recover below and then climb to make another run followed by the wing men. When the free Wildcat turned into the lead Zero, that Zero would break away followed by his wing men. When the Zero broke the original attacked Wildcat would reverse with his wing man reversing into him. That was why it was called a weave. The Zeros in IJN did not like to stay on a target's tail unless they were absolutely sure they would not be attacked by another opponent. Remember, they were aware of their AC's vulnerability and did not like to take any hits. This is all from Lundstrom, "The First Team," and explodes some myths about Pacific War air fighting. A Wildcat would have only one hope in a contest with an FW and that was an angles fight where he outturns the FW. The FW could outrun, outclimb and maybe out dive a Wildcat but the Wildcat could turn inside of him.

Vincenzo · Apr 9, 2009

Marcel said:
As I said, the Finnish version was rated 416 km/h, so the chart only has to be adjusted for 5 km.
(Source: D XXI FINNLAND FR 76
GESCHWINDIGKEITSMESSUNGEN IN VERSCHIEDENEN HOHEN
SCHIPHOL 18.8.'37
MASCHINE MIT KANONENKAPPEN UND MIT N.L.L INSTRUMENTEN)
This was the FR-76, Mercury VII

I believe the Finnish had some Mercury equipped examples on strength.

need also up the altitude of best speed

yes, but no more in '42

Juha · Apr 9, 2009

Hello Vincenzo
even on 1.1.1944 1/LeLv 12 of FAF had 7 Mercury-engined Fokker D. XXIs.

Juha

Vincenzo · Apr 9, 2009

Hi Juha
true but it's a recce unit almost for my source on Finnish in WW II
FMP - Finnish Defence Forces in WW II - Contents

davebender · Apr 9, 2009

A Wildcat would have only one hope in a contest with an FW and that was an angles fight where he outturns the FW. The FW could outrun, outclimb and maybe out dive a Wildcat but the Wildcat could turn inside of him.

The Fw-190 also had superior acceleration, superior cockpit visibility, superior range/payload and massively superior firepower. It would take a dumb or poorly trained Fw-190 pilot to throw away all his advantages and engage the F4F in a stall fight.

Marcel · Apr 10, 2009

Vincenzo said:
need also up the altitude of best speed

yes, but no more in '42

Of course
Speed was measured at 5000 meters.

For the rate of climb:

D XXI FINNLAND FR 76
STEIGFLUG NACH 9000 METER
SCHIPHOL 18.8.'37
GESAMT GEWICHT 1970,6 KG
MASCHINE MIT KANONENKAPPEN UND MIT N.L.L INSTRUMENTEN

1000 meter = 1,21
2000 meter = 2,25
3000 meter = 3,37
4000 meter = 4,64
5000 meter = 6,13
6000 meter = 7,93
7000 meter = 10,21
8000 meter = 13,30
9000 meter = 18,08

Juha · Apr 10, 2009

Hello Vincenzo

Quote:"true but it's a recce unit almost for my source on Finnish in WW II"

Yes, it was a recon unit, but they got some aerial victories in 42.

Juha

Vincenzo · Apr 10, 2009

Juha said:
Hello Vincenzo

Quote:"true but it's a recce unit almost for my source on Finnish in WW II"

Yes, it was a recon unit, but they got some aerial victories in 42.

Juha

so? all aircraft can got aerial victories also a flying boat that don't make it a fighter

Ivan1GFP · Apr 10, 2009

Regarding Wildcat versus Zero, what I have read is this:
1 Wildcat versus 1 Zero: The Zero is much superior.
In a group fight, 3 Wildcats are a match for 5 Zeros.

The really surprising tactic was this: The Wildcat pilots are to ignore Zeros that are trailing them. They are to clear the tails of OTHER Wildcats. I believe this is because the Zeros after they have expended their cannon shells (which is pretty quickly done) are not terribly dangerous with two little rifle caliber MGs.

- Ivan.

davebender · Apr 10, 2009

That only works if you are flying CAP. If the Wildcats are escorting SBDs on a strike mission then they must attack Japanese fighters in order to protect the USN bombers.

Vincenzo · Apr 10, 2009

Ivan1GFP said:
Regarding Wildcat versus Zero, what I have read is this:
1 Wildcat versus 1 Zero: The Zero is much superior.
In a group fight, 3 Wildcats are a match for 5 Zeros.

The really surprising tactic was this: The Wildcat pilots are to ignore Zeros that are trailing them. They are to clear the tails of OTHER Wildcats. I believe this is because the Zeros after they have expended their cannon shells (which is pretty quickly done) are not terribly dangerous with two little rifle caliber MGs.

- Ivan.

maybe more sure 4 wildcats versus 3 zeros

p.s. sure was wrong word for safe

renrich · Apr 10, 2009

It is a good thing that Joe Foss did not know all that us "experts" know.

Vincenzo · Apr 10, 2009

renrich said:
It is a good thing that Joe Foss did not know all that us "experts" know.

what would you say?

renrich · Apr 10, 2009

In reading about Foss and his exploits at Guadalcanal in a Wildcat, he had, I think, 26 kills many of them against crack IJN pilots in A6Ms and although he flew with a wing man, I don't believe he used the Thach Weave. He seemed to think the F4F4 was superior to any Zero and his tactics were to close with the enemy, often losing his wing man, and clobber him with the 6-50s. He was an excellent shot and outstanding pilot and seemed fearless.

Vincenzo · Apr 10, 2009

with "losing his wing man" means that wingman was shoot down?

Marcel · Apr 10, 2009

Vincenzo said:
so? all aircraft can got aerial victories also a flying boat that don't make it a fighter

The D.XXI is a fighter, plain and simple.

Vincenzo · Apr 10, 2009

also a Fokker Dr.I was a fighter but wasn't a '42 fighters

p.s. w/o go so early also a C.R. 32 was a fighter but for end of '40 they left the fighter units for the attack, ground support units, so isn't right use it in a comparison of '41 fighter (almost not for R.A.)

Marcel · Apr 10, 2009

Vincenzo said:
also a Fokker Dr.I was a fighter but wasn't a '42 fighters

It wasn't flying operational in 1942, if it would be, it would be a fighter. The D.XXI was flying operational, doesn't matter if it was recce and it was a fighter aircraft. The aircraft were not altered with less guns or so.

renrich · Apr 10, 2009

His wing man could not keep up some of the time.

Vincenzo · Apr 10, 2009

Marcel said:
It wasn't flying operational in 1942, if it would be, it would be a fighter. The D.XXI was flying operational, doesn't matter if it was recce and it was a fighter aircraft. The aircraft were not altered with less guns or so.

sorry i'm not agree. a fighter is a fighter is it's used as fighter. lw used arado (lw last biplane fighters) also in '44 in night operation that can't tell that arado 68 is a '44 fighter

Best radial fighter of '42

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