Best Tank Killer of WW2 continued

Burmese Bandit · Jan 15, 2009

Again and again and again and again and again I will say:

for those who want to know the actual accuracy of rockets against tanks right up to the 1970s....before the microchip revolution....I have this to say:

There's a reason why the A-10 warthog was designed with a 30 mm gun firing DU ammo with a humongous cartridge case!

lesofprimus · Jan 15, 2009

Amen..

parsifal · Jan 16, 2009

Im not going to get into this rocket argument, because i dont know. But in relation to the tank killing argument, it is indeed true that very few tanks were lost to air attack. However, in the case of the allied ground attack effort, whilst they were inneffectual against tanks, they were highly successful against soft skinned vehicles, trains, and personnel. The losses suffered by Lehr attest to that.

Since the Allied FBs were mostly equipped with bombs and rockets, and i know they were effective against soft targets, they cannot have been all bad. maybe it was the firepower that made them deadly????

One more thing....airpower generally was relatively inneffective in killing things. perhaps 5% of all battlefield caualties can be attributed to air attack. By far the most lethal weapon systems were artillery , follwed by mortars, followed by tanks, then small arms. Aircraft were a distant last in the overall lethality. What airpower exceolled at was the suppression mission. you didnt get killed unless you tried to move. If you were forced to move, the Jabos would swoop on you

Clay_Allison · Jan 16, 2009

Burmese Bandit said:
Again and again and again and again and again I will say:

for those who want to know the actual accuracy of rockets against tanks right up to the 1970s....before the microchip revolution....I have this to say:

There's a reason why the A-10 warthog was designed with a 30 mm gun firing DU ammo with a humongous cartridge case!

Yeah, because it's AWESOME.

drgondog · Jan 16, 2009

Burmese Bandit said:
Again and again and again and again and again I will say:

for those who want to know the actual accuracy of rockets against tanks right up to the 1970s....before the microchip revolution....I have this to say:

There's a reason why the A-10 warthog was designed with a 30 mm gun firing DU ammo with a humongous cartridge case!

You are right.. one slight modification.

The gun came first - THEN the A-10 was designed around it..

drgondog · Jan 16, 2009

projob66 said:
5 inch rockets are very very good. They drop little. Decent range. You can use the rudder in a last minute correction and it will for the most part work. Above all your time straight and predictable in the run is much less than with free fall weapons or 2.75. all good things... survivability is a key ingredient from the perspective of the cockpit.

By the time you get a 'read' on rocket impact point you are way past the original launch position and probably pulling out. Rudder no use at all for rockets, especially 2.75's. Even 5 inch, as more destructive, compared to 2.75s is still not a thing of beauty if 'perfectly straight' meets that standard.

The Zuni is a lot better than the WWII rockets but even it needs the forthcoming laser kit to be truly effective.

Cannon or heavy machine gun you can make some flight control alterations in time - maybe.

SoD Stitch · Jan 16, 2009

Rockets are definitely more of an area-suppression weapon, not something you plan on actually hitting something with.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Jan 17, 2009

projob66 said:
5 inch rockets are very very good. They drop little. Decent range. You can use the rudder in a last minute correction and it will for the most part work. Above all your time straight and predictable in the run is much less than with free fall weapons or 2.75. all good things... survivability is a key ingredient from the perspective of the cockpit.

In what video game?

This is about real life, and as most people have pointed out they were not accurate at the time.

Elvis · Mar 15, 2009

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
In what video game?

LOL!

imalko · Mar 15, 2009

Burmese Bandit said:
Again and again and again and again and again I will say:

for those who want to know the actual accuracy of rockets against tanks right up to the 1970s....before the microchip revolution....I have this to say:

There's a reason why the A-10 warthog was designed with a 30 mm gun firing DU ammo with a humongous cartridge case!

And I would have to agree on your oppinion about gun armament. Becouse of that I think that best tank killer in WW2 was Junkers Ju-87G Kannonewogell.

Clay_Allison · Mar 18, 2009

imalko said:
And I would have to agree on your oppinion about gun armament. Becouse of that I think that best tank killer in WW2 was Junkers Ju-87G Kannonewogell.

Was the Ju-87 accurate enough to divebomb a tank with the swinging bomb?

imalko · Mar 18, 2009

Clay_Allison said:
Was the Ju-87 accurate enough to divebomb a tank with the swinging bomb?

Junkers Ju 87 Stukas accuracy as a dive bomber was such that it was capable to hit target in radius of about 30 meters. (For comparison B-17s accuracy was about 150 meters off target.)

But Ju 87G was specially designed tank killer armed with two underwing 37 mm cannons and not with bombs, so it didn't performed its attacks as a clasical divebomber and even its underwing dive breaks were removed. (Besides in German language "kannonewogell" means "gun bird".)

The best of German Stuka aces - Oberst Hans-Urlich Rudel - destroyed over 500 Soviet tanks and large number of other vehicles operating this type of aircraft.

lesofprimus · Mar 18, 2009

Propaganda at its finest.... Half that number and its probably still too high....

I would rank the Ju87G-2 second behind the Fw190F-8 because of the survivability aspect... The Panzerblitz II set up was more accurate and devastating than the standard Allied 60lb, using the R4M motor...

Rudel himself was shot down many many times, too many times for me to appreciate the 37mm cannons lethality on the Stuka airframe compared to what the F-8 could do at ground level....

And it could carry bombs as well....

imalko · Mar 18, 2009

And Hans-Joachim Marseilles was himself shot down 17 times. Does that make him less of an ace or does it change the fact that he shot down over 150 Alied aircrafts?

I assume you are reffering on number of tanks destroyed by Rudel. I can only state the numbers I have found in literature (and that is around 500 tanks), but even if there was only a half of that number it still would be very impressive. Wouldn't be?

Ju 87G also could carry bombs if cannons were removed. And it could be easily done so if neccesary. Fw 190F had greater survivability becouse it was different category of aircraft derived from a fighter and not to mention that it was designed five years after Stuka.

For me it is incredible that even towards the end of war, when Stuka was already 10 years old design and outclassed by more modern aircraft, it was still able to hold its own and get the job done.

davebender · Mar 18, 2009

Not nearly as cool as a Tempest or Fw-190F. But this is the real tank killer of WWII. 8)

lesofprimus · Mar 18, 2009

It was able to hold its ow when there were no Soviet fighters in the immediate airspace.... Through some Laggs or Yaks into the mix and the 87G was dead meat...

And I was not referring to Rudels ability as a pilot, but the slow moving, easy target tug that he was flying... Yes, 200+ enemy tanks destroyed makes him the greatest tank busting pilot the world has ever seen... His number is more likely in the 150-200 range tho....

U assume correctly, Rudel was the Reichs ultimate propaganda tool, a tool that Goebbels used with precision...

And where are u getting the info that 87G's were using bombs on enemy tanks??? Thats horsesh*t.... Show me a pic of an 87G carrying bombs on the Eastern Front and I'll eat my signed Bobby Nystrom autographed hockey puck....

imalko · Mar 18, 2009

davebender said:
Not nearly as cool as a Tempest or Fw-190F. But this is the real tank killer of WWII. 8)

imalko · Mar 18, 2009

lesofprimus said:
Show me a pic of an 87G carrying bombs on the Eastern Front and I'll eat my signed Bobby Nystrom autographed hockey puck....

Please don't do that theres no need.

If I showed you picture of Ju 87G carrying bombs, then it would be without cannons and you couldn't tell if that is really "G" or "D". I just said it was capable of carrying bombs if neccesary and if cannons were remowed that is all.

In fact "G" was only a "D" version with dive breaks remowed and cannons installed. It was essentially the same aircraft. So there is many, many pictures of this version Stukas with bombs. But what were they bombing - tanks or something else I really don't know.

Add to Stuka a fighter escort of Hartmmanns Karaya Staffel and in that case Yaks would be dead meet.8)

Cheers!

imalko · Mar 18, 2009

Just wondering... What is your opinion on Henshel Hs 129?

Twin engines, heavy armour, fixed armament of 2xMG 151/20 20mm cannons and 2xMG 17 7,92mm machine guns, optional armament: rockets, bombs, 37mm anti-tank gun or 75mm(!) anti-tank gun.

It is said that it was efficient in combat but only small number was build (around 700 in total).

It probably had poor performance when armed with 75mm gun though.

Comments and opinions?

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Mar 19, 2009

Clay_Allison said:
Was the Ju-87 accurate enough to divebomb a tank with the swinging bomb?

The Ju 87G was not a dive bomber. It was a dedicated anti tank aircraft. It was armed with two 37 mm cannon. That is why it was known as the "Kanonenvogel" or "Cannon Bird".

Granted it could probably be used as a Dive Bomber, but that was not its mission.

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