Best World War II Aircraft?

[drgondog]

Hello Elvis,

The US where the only wargoing nation that from the very beginning strongly empathized on the flight training of its pilots, and using a training and evaluation program very similar to its unique or typical American approach of mass production techniques. Therefore the US IMO had the best overall pilots during WW2 and maybe until today.

Regards
Kruska

We talked this over in another thread and as usual it is a.) hard to define 'Best' - but certainly easy to define 'Most'. In 1938 when Roosevely signed the Civilian Pilot Training Program Act there were only about 13,000 USAAF airmen and pilots, growing to 26,000 by Sept 1939 and 354,000 by Dec 1941.

By the time the CPTP was wound down 435,000 Pilots had graduated from Primary School at 1,132 different universities and 1,460 flight schools - and as such were accepted into USAAF Basic Training.

Looking over my father's logbook, he was entirely USAAF trained starting with his first flight Feb 7, 1941 and graduating from Aviation Cadet Training in June 1941 as a 2nd Lt with ~ 345 hrs. His total time was not unusual for pre-Dec 1941 cadets. By Pearl Harbor day he had 750 hours and was an IP at Goodfellow airfied, TX.

He became CO of the #3 BFTS - 302 AAFFTD on 2 January 1943 - a major training program for Brit and Commonwealth pilots at Miami OK. At that time he had 1430 hrs. When he finally escaped Training Command he got 100 hours in B-26, then escaped again to Fighters and got 250 hours more in P-40 before 'escaping again' to 8th AF.. where he got 3 hours at Goxhill, flew his first mission on D-day and scored his first kill - on 6 June his logbook time was 2100+ hours. At war end he had 2500+ hours

This is unusual, but an example of many of the best pilots out of Cadet Training were ASSIGNED as Instructor Pilots which is another reason US had very good training.

Last but not least was weather across entire southern half of US - very few bad flying days.

 

[buzzard]

Kruska,

I'm surprised to find out that Luftwaffe pilots felt inferior...I guess the 'experten mystique' remains very powerful. Is it due to financial reasons that their training is not up to par with other Western nations? And is this recent, or has it been the norm since the Luftwaffe was rebuilt after the war?

I remember Hartmann's bitterness about the 'too-early' acquisition of the F-104, but wasn't Canada's loss rate even higher? We certainly had the space to train in, and we lost over half of our Zippers to accidents (this is from memory...)

Anyone here know much about WWII Russian aircrew training? I get the impression it wasn't that great. Perhaps too much emphasis on dialectical materialism, and not enough ACM...

 

[wingnuts]

A bit more on the DC2 - DC3 discussion. The DC3 was bigger over all including wingspan, as can be seen from the photos of the CNAC DC2 1/2 in the attached URL:

CNAC's Famous DC-2 1/2

A good story and adds the the DC3/Goony Bird/Dak legend

 

[Old Wizard]

Hello Old Wizard,

could that be the reason why we (Luftwaffe) decided to shift low level flight manouvers to Canada?

Regards
Kruska

Maybe so that your aircrews could have fun scaring Caribou over Labrador and sport fishermen in Alberta.

 

[Kruska]

We talked this over in another thread and as usual it is a.) hard to define 'Best' - but certainly easy to define 'Most'. In 1938 when Roosevely signed the Civilian Pilot Training Program Act there were only about 13,000 USAAF airmen and pilots, growing to 26,000 by Sept 1939 and 354,000 by Dec 1941.

By the time the CPTP was wound down 435,000 Pilots had graduated from Primary School at 1,132 different universities and 1,460 flight schools - and as such were accepted into USAAF Basic Training.

Looking over my father's logbook, he was entirely USAAF trained starting with his first flight Feb 7, 1941 and graduating from Aviation Cadet Training in June 1941 as a 2nd Lt with ~ 345 hrs. His total time was not unusual for pre-Dec 1941 cadets. By Pearl Harbor day he had 750 hours and was an IP at Goodfellow airfied, TX.

He became CO of the #3 BFTS - 302 AAFFTD on 2 January 1943 - a major training program for Brit and Commonwealth pilots at Miami OK. At that time he had 1430 hrs. When he finally escaped Training Command he got 100 hours in B-26, then escaped again to Fighters and got 250 hours more in P-40 before 'escaping again' to 8th AF.. where he got 3 hours at Goxhill, flew his first mission on D-day and scored his first kill - on 6 June his logbook time was 2100+ hours. At war end he had 2500+ hours

This is unusual, but an example of many of the best pilots out of Cadet Training were ASSIGNED as Instructor Pilots which is another reason US had very good training.

Last but not least was weather across entire southern half of US - very few bad flying days.

Hello drgondog,

Thanks for some very interesting info regarding your Father and the flight-experience. About 350,000 pilots within 2 years at an average of 250 F/h +, amazing and it proofs the mastership of American mass production techniques.

Regards
Kruska

 

[Kruska]

Kruska,

I'm surprised to find out that Luftwaffe pilots felt inferior...I guess the 'experten mystique' remains very powerful. Is it due to financial reasons that their training is not up to par with other Western nations? And is this recent, or has it been the norm since the Luftwaffe was rebuilt after the war?

I remember Hartmann's bitterness about the 'too-early' acquisition of the F-104, but wasn't Canada's loss rate even higher? We certainly had the space to train in, and we lost over half of our Zippers to accidents (this is from memory...)

Anyone here know much about WWII Russian aircrew training? I get the impression it wasn't that great. Perhaps too much emphasis on dialectical materialism, and not enough ACM...

Hello buzzard,

During the 60's and 70's defence budget restrains were very minor, and the Luftwaffe was quite a match or on equal terms with the USAF, even though the totalling amount of USAF piloting hours and experience was still far more then that of the Luftwaffe - not to forget Air National Guard - were the Luftwaffe has no equivalent and wartime experience like Korea and Vietnam.

Especially since the reunification of East and West Germany considerable Budet cuts (50%) have quite a negative impact on anything - even though the GAF is still preserving its basic needs - but basic doesn't stand for needed or required.

More then half of "the missile with man" lost for the CAF?? that sounds very frightening since the causes of those crashes have a reasonable explanation for the GAF which do not quite apply to the CAF.

The Luftwaffe lost about 30%, 269 out of 916 F-104G's and 112 pilots

Regards
Kruska

 

[pbfoot]

Actually it was less then half 46% of CF104 crashed but please don't over look the underlying reasons .
They flew and specialized in the lo level stike mission an inherently dangerous mission.

 

[Kruska]

Hello pbfoot,

So the flight training of the CAF might not have been so good after all ?

Okay very sorry, it is not in my intention to make fun of those CAF pilots who crashed or got killed.

What makes me wonder is that the CAF or RCAF did have a continuous follow up on technological developments and new fighter types after WW2, which the GAF did not have.

As such the "jump" after 10 years from Mach 0 to Mach 1.0 to Mach 2 was actually the reason for overstressing the abilities of the F-104G crews.
My uncle loved the F104G, he's quite famous for certain "stunts" within the 60's but he was a WW2 veteran with thousands of flying hours and did his PPL in Switzerland shortly after WW2.

Did the CAF jump from Sabres straight to the CF104 or wasn't there the CF100 and CF101 Voodoo in between

Regards
Kruska

 

[Elvis]

Maybe so that your aircrews could have fun scaring Caribou over Labrador and sport fishermen in Alberta.

Hey Ol' Wiz, is
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEVBJ9qpeHs kinda what you're talking about?





Elvis

 

[buzzard]

pbfoot is correct. Slightly less than 1/2 of the CF-104s crashed. I checked out DL Brashow's, "Starfighter" (Fortress Publ./91) and he has the disposition of all 238 CAF '104s listed. Here's the cause of loss stats:

Struck Ground/Ice/Sea : 31
Mid-Air Collision : 8
Mech. Failure : 36
Foreign Object Damage : 8
Bird Strike : 13
Loss of Control : 12
Write Off* : 3
Hanger Fire : 2

38 CAF pilots lost their lives in the CF-104. Given the inherently dangerous nature of their mission and the unforgiving handling characteristics of the Zipper, I think our pilots performed admirably.

* No reason is given for the 'write-offs'

JL

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I worked with people involved in the 104 program while I was at Lockheed. One thing to look at and Kruska brought it up was there wasn't a good transition trainer for the F-104. Basically you were going from an F-86 and jumping into twice the machine. It wasn't until the T-38 where this got corrected. Additionally I know Kelly Johnson was against the low level mission of the F-104. Although it turned out to be a great mini nuclear bomber, he always felt employing it in a low level strike role defeated its mission.

I don't have all that stats in front of me but the F-104 went from having the highest attrition rate in NATO to one of the lowest. The Spanish AF flew the aircraft for I think 6 years and never lost one! At the same time the highest fighter attrition rate in NATO? The F-100. I think it had 4 accidents for every 100,000 flight hours. In the end I think the F-104 was about half that.

 

[Kruska]

FLYBOY: but the F-104 went from having the highest attrition rate in NATO to one of the lowest.

Yes I am also aware of this statistc.

According to early GAF pilots, the real widow maker of the GAF was the F-84.
Of the 508, F-84F Thunderstreak and RF-84F Thunderflash Luftwaffe jets, 93 crashed and 43 pilots were killed, even though this a/c was only in service for 10 years, in contrast to the F-104G with 28 years in service.

Oh boy, we really drifted of from best a/c of WW2

Regards
Kruska

 

[buzzard]

We have deviated from the topic, but I'm gonna make one more 104 post...

Kuska,

The CF-100 and CF-101 pilots were trained as interceptor pilots. I don't know their loss rates. The initial group of future RCAF CF-104 instructor pilots were given a 20 hr course in the F-100 before taking on the '104. The first lead-in trainers were the CT-133 (T-33) and the Sabre. Later the CF-5A took on that role.

Your comment about the accident rate of the F-84 is similar to Canada's experience with the Sabre. In 12 years of service, there were 282 Category 'A' accidents, with 112 killed. Yet, nobody ever called the Sabre a 'widowmaker'...

JL

 

[Kruska]

Hello Buzzard,

looks like the Me262 wasn't so bad after all

Regards
Kruska

P.S. just a little try to get back into the WW2 direction of this thread.

 

[pbfoot]

Hello pbfoot,

So the flight training of the CAF might not have been so good after all ?

Okay very sorry, it is not in my intention to make fun of those CAF pilots who crashed or got killed.

What makes me wonder is that the CAF or RCAF did have a continuous follow up on technological developments and new fighter types after WW2, which the GAF did not have.

As such the "jump" after 10 years from Mach 0 to Mach 1.0 to Mach 2 was actually the reason for overstressing the abilities of the F-104G crews.
My uncle loved the F104G, he's quite famous for certain "stunts" within the 60's but he was a WW2 veteran with thousands of flying hours and did his PPL in Switzerland shortly after WW2.

Did the CAF jump from Sabres straight to the CF104 or wasn't there the CF100 and CF101 Voodoo in between?

View attachment 62504

Regards
Kruska

When the GAF initially were having a tough time with the 104 I believe Galland or Hartman asked the RCAF to do an inventory of the operating procedures which were found wanting in both maintainence and airmanship. They soon switched over to the RCAF doctrine . I have an article on this some where in non dewey system archives . As for the 104 it worked in a dangerous enviroment low and fast and 31 hit the cumulous granite and and 13 were birdstrikes

 

[JugBR]

for dogfighter, my vote is for the "reich´s defender", the Bf 109.

it´s not the faster, the most powerfull, the most armoured, people says was unconfortable to pilot, other says cant turns left so good as turns right (or vice versa, dont know). but, she starts service before spanish civil war and retired almost a decade after germany surrended.

fought in east, in west and also in the pacific. the great luftwaffe aces with 100+ kill flew the Bf 109, they loved that plane and they knew how to get its best performance.

i like very much the mustangs, hurricanes, spitfires, yaks and jugs(this one for obvious reasons), but the Bf 109 is a true legend !


for bomber, my vote is for the flying fortress.

i admire those who flew inside a b-17 over german homeland, these guys was true heroes.

for ground attack, my vote is for Jug

because its the jug, thats it ! dont needs explanation, its the fliyng panzer, its our baby !

 

[starling]

before ridiculing my choice,take a good look see around.she was used in many theatres ,for more jobs than i can remember.lovely aircraft is the vickers wellington.yours,starling.

 

[parsifal]

before ridiculing my choice,take a good look see around.she was used in many theatres ,for more jobs than i can remember.lovely aircraft is the vickers wellington.yours,starling


Starling

I wouldnt have picked the wimpy, but I dont think any of the smarter ones here are going to ridicule that choice. The wellington gave excellent service, from the start of the war to the finish

 

[Vraciu]

1st. place - Chance Vought F4U Corsair - to reconcile fighter bomber
2nd. place - Republic P-47 Thunderbolt - to reconcile fighter bomber
3rd. place ex aequo - Nakajima Ki-84 Hayate 'Frank', Focke Wulf Ta 152 - best Axis fighters ever

4th. place ex aequo: Grumman F6F Hellcat, Boeing B-29 Superfortress, Kawanishi N1K2-J Shiden-kai 'George', Mitsubishi J2M Raiden 'Jack' and North American P-51H Mustang

 

[Elvis]

Wasn't the Vickers Wellington the one with the lattace-work frame that was supposed to make the plane's fueselage so strong?



Elvis