In no way, did he make a snide remark to you. He only disagreed with you. If you think that everyone disagreeing with you is making a snide remark, you better grow some thicker skin. In fact you might want to stay off the internet.
Best World War II Aircraft?
- Thread starter Aggie08
- Start date
In no way, did he make a snide remark to you. He only disagreed with you. If you think that everyone disagreeing with you is making a snide remark, you better grow some thicker skin. In fact you might want to stay off the internet.
Glider
Major
I have to agree with this statement. My understanding is that the He280 could have been ready some time before the Me262. I am not saying that the 280 was a better aircraft as clearly it isn't, but that doesn't mean that the 280 was a lemon.
He 280 aircraft in service could well have tipped the balance in the air battles of 1943 which in many way was the crucial year in the war.
KrazyKraut
Banned
- 337
- Apr 21, 2008
You are wrong. It's a myth that the He 280 could've been operational in numbers earlier than the Me 262. Only on July 5th '42 did it fly with the production version HeS 8 A for the first time, only a week before the Me 262 flew with the Jumo 004. The flights showed that not only was the Messerschmitt superior performance-wise, it also was plagued by less problems, including the engines. The HeS 8 was a dead-end road. Forced to redesign the He 280 for the heavier Jumo they essentially lost any lead they still had over the Messerschmitt.
Glider
Major
I thought that the He280 first flew with the HeS 8a in April 41, not April 42 and with these engines it had a performance of approx 500mph. A performance not to be sniffed at in 1943 (allowing 2 years to sort any problems out).
As mentioned before, I am not claiming that the He280 was a match for the Me 262 but it could well have changed the picture of the air war over the occupied areas of Europe. By the time the 262 came on stream in 1944 the war was effectively lost and it was a matter of when, not if, the Axis forces were to be beaten.
As mentioned before, I am not claiming that the He280 was a match for the Me 262 but it could well have changed the picture of the air war over the occupied areas of Europe. By the time the 262 came on stream in 1944 the war was effectively lost and it was a matter of when, not if, the Axis forces were to be beaten.
KrazyKraut
Banned
- 337
- Apr 21, 2008
It flew on may 30th '41, but only with the uncovered HeS 8, with performance limited to 550kp instead of 750 and very far from being production ready. They were very unreliable, especially the thrust control and essential work had to be done. The installation of the Jumo 210 on the Me 262 around the same time allowed it to keep pace in terms of airframe development.
So from spring 1941 to spring-summer 1942 the He 280 progressed very slowly (the design was limited), waiting for the engines to become reliable. During the same timeframe the Me 262 made considerably more progress, while their BMW was still as unreliable as the HeS.
When the flights in July '42 were conducted, the bottleneck of both design phases were still the engines. Only the Me 262 could accept virtually any of the German jets available without serious modification. The He 280 couldn't.
None of the German jets of the time would've been able to go into serial production before mid to late '43. By that time, all was in favour of the Me 262. The engines dictated the fate of these planes.
So from spring 1941 to spring-summer 1942 the He 280 progressed very slowly (the design was limited), waiting for the engines to become reliable. During the same timeframe the Me 262 made considerably more progress, while their BMW was still as unreliable as the HeS.
When the flights in July '42 were conducted, the bottleneck of both design phases were still the engines. Only the Me 262 could accept virtually any of the German jets available without serious modification. The He 280 couldn't.
None of the German jets of the time would've been able to go into serial production before mid to late '43. By that time, all was in favour of the Me 262. The engines dictated the fate of these planes.
kool kitty89
Senior Master Sergeant
I agree on the He 280, perhaps if Heinkel had gone with a more conservative development of the aircraft and Ohain hadn't abandoned the earlier HeS 6 (which while somewhat bulky and heavy, was no larger than Whittle's engine and only moderately heavier then the HeS 8 at 420 kg) It was already producing nearly 600 kp thrust when it was abandoned in 1939 and had far fewer problems than the HeS 8. Additional improvements would likely be possible after aquiring Hirth.
They would have had to mount it mid-wing with a curved spar similar to the Meteor and it would have been wise to make more provisions for fuel capacity. Weapons capability was dencent, in fact the Me 262 had originally been designed for 3x MG 151 as well, though it proved capable of much more, the He 280 could probably have been upgraded to 2x MK 108 (possibly 3) without much trouble.
The biggest mistake Germany made with Heinkel's jet program, and possibly the biggest mistake of the German jet program, was the cancellation of the excellent HeS 30 (109-006) in 1942 when it was making great progress, considering the 004 and 003 "good enough" and assuming the latter two were nearing production at this time, while in reality they would both be stalled several times (particularly the 003).
Heinkel-Hirth instead was forced to move on to the "Class II" HeS 011 which developed somewhat slowly and was still in the prototype stage at the end of the war.
The HeS 30 was equal or superior to all other engines tested in the war in terms of specific fuel consumption, thrust/weight, and thrust/frontal area. And no individual engine beat it in more than one of of its categories. (the 19" diameter US J30 had better thrust/frontal area, the Nene had better thrust/weight, and I think one of the Metrovick engines had better SFC)
It may have been a case of both "good" and best, not being overly complex and would probably have been easier to produce then the 004 (probably not quite as quick to built as the 003) and could possibly have been ready for production before the 004B. (and certainly before the 003)
Had the Me 262 used it, it would have been ~1,600 lbs lighter (with same fuel and weapons load) had ~40-50% longer range, better engine handling characterisitcs, better speed, climb rate, and maneuverability (particularly roll), a shortened take-off run, and better low speed handling.
Then again you could also say that when the Jumo team (working on the conservative 004) merged with the Junkers jet team (with Adolf Müller) with several designs on the drawing board and a test bed engine constructed (what would later become the HeS 30 was the least complex of these), they should have dropped the conservative Jumo design and developed Müller's engine.
They would have had to mount it mid-wing with a curved spar similar to the Meteor and it would have been wise to make more provisions for fuel capacity. Weapons capability was dencent, in fact the Me 262 had originally been designed for 3x MG 151 as well, though it proved capable of much more, the He 280 could probably have been upgraded to 2x MK 108 (possibly 3) without much trouble.
The biggest mistake Germany made with Heinkel's jet program, and possibly the biggest mistake of the German jet program, was the cancellation of the excellent HeS 30 (109-006) in 1942 when it was making great progress, considering the 004 and 003 "good enough" and assuming the latter two were nearing production at this time, while in reality they would both be stalled several times (particularly the 003).
Heinkel-Hirth instead was forced to move on to the "Class II" HeS 011 which developed somewhat slowly and was still in the prototype stage at the end of the war.
The HeS 30 was equal or superior to all other engines tested in the war in terms of specific fuel consumption, thrust/weight, and thrust/frontal area. And no individual engine beat it in more than one of of its categories. (the 19" diameter US J30 had better thrust/frontal area, the Nene had better thrust/weight, and I think one of the Metrovick engines had better SFC)
It may have been a case of both "good" and best, not being overly complex and would probably have been easier to produce then the 004 (probably not quite as quick to built as the 003) and could possibly have been ready for production before the 004B. (and certainly before the 003)
Had the Me 262 used it, it would have been ~1,600 lbs lighter (with same fuel and weapons load) had ~40-50% longer range, better engine handling characterisitcs, better speed, climb rate, and maneuverability (particularly roll), a shortened take-off run, and better low speed handling.
Then again you could also say that when the Jumo team (working on the conservative 004) merged with the Junkers jet team (with Adolf Müller) with several designs on the drawing board and a test bed engine constructed (what would later become the HeS 30 was the least complex of these), they should have dropped the conservative Jumo design and developed Müller's engine.
Glider
Major
Thank you both for the additional information, much appreciated
Yes he did, he turned to calling it "your gunfodder" "Überpanzers", and I knew what he was insinuating and so do you.
kool kitty89
Senior Master Sergeant
Glider, another note on the Me 262 and He 280 is that while the He 280 was slightly smaller (length, wing span and area were very similar, though the He 280 had a significantly narrower fuselage) their airframes' weights were almost identical.
The emply weight of the Me 262 was much higher due to the engines (~750 kg for the 004B-4 compared to 380 kg for the HeS 8A) and the difference loaded weights was even greater due to the much greater fuel capacity of the Me 262.
The emply weight of the Me 262 was much higher due to the engines (~750 kg for the 004B-4 compared to 380 kg for the HeS 8A) and the difference loaded weights was even greater due to the much greater fuel capacity of the Me 262.
Soren
I'd say only this the term "your gunfodder " came from Your sentence
Quote:"on the open battlefield the T-34 proved to be nothing but gunfodder for German tanks"
and from the fact that there are lot of photos showing T-34s in Berlin in May 45. And there are also many photos showing Panthers and Tigers in junkyards in 45 and 46.
Juha
I'd say only this the term "your gunfodder " came from Your sentence
Quote:"on the open battlefield the T-34 proved to be nothing but gunfodder for German tanks"
and from the fact that there are lot of photos showing T-34s in Berlin in May 45. And there are also many photos showing Panthers and Tigers in junkyards in 45 and 46.
Juha
Juha you tried to provoke me by rephrasing what I said and calling it my gunfodder, and then turning to calling German tanks for "Überpanzers". All in an attempt to provoke me. You might as-well admit it, cause it is far from the first time you do it.
Sure there were T-34's in Berlin in 45, there were afterall made roughly 70,000 during the war. But perhaps it is your opinion that because it was in Berlin in 45 then it was the best tank of WW2 ??? Interesting way of argueing for something I must say, not very objective, but interesting.
As for German tanks being in Junkyards, sure, incase you didn't know it Germany lost the war. But besides that several countries continued to use their tanks until there were no more spare parts.
Sure there were T-34's in Berlin in 45, there were afterall made roughly 70,000 during the war. But perhaps it is your opinion that because it was in Berlin in 45 then it was the best tank of WW2 ??? Interesting way of argueing for something I must say, not very objective, but interesting.
As for German tanks being in Junkyards, sure, incase you didn't know it Germany lost the war. But besides that several countries continued to use their tanks until there were no more spare parts.
evangilder
"Shooter"
ENOUGH! Get this back on topic now, or be prepared to get an involuntary cooling off period. Got it?
good idea wingnut if I could get some help in the next couple of days I could have a poll fourm set up
KrazyKraut
Banned
- 337
- Apr 21, 2008
I think there is no single best aircraft, rather there are a lot of them. A best aircraft has to provide its airforce with a unique capability. As such the DC3 is maybe the best cargo plane, but there were alternatives which could do what it did.
Some nominees from me:
-Ju 87; get's very little credit today, but was one of a kind when first deployed and the most devastating single type of plane in the campaigns of '39-'40 and early in Barbarossa. A lot battles were only won because of well placed Stuka bombs.
-Mosquito; basically the most cost effective plane of the war, it caused much more problems for the Luftwaffe than most of its larger English brothers did '40-'42, for a fraction of the price. Basically un-interceptable until late in the war.
-P-51; even though it's also the most overrated plane, it combined the advantages of P-47 and P-38 and expanded on them, again while being a lot cheaper. The best long range escort of the war.
-Me 262: too late, but basically half an era ahead of its adversaries at the time.
-A6M: the world's first carrier fighter that could keep up with the non-carrier fighers.
Some nominees from me:
-Ju 87; get's very little credit today, but was one of a kind when first deployed and the most devastating single type of plane in the campaigns of '39-'40 and early in Barbarossa. A lot battles were only won because of well placed Stuka bombs.
-Mosquito; basically the most cost effective plane of the war, it caused much more problems for the Luftwaffe than most of its larger English brothers did '40-'42, for a fraction of the price. Basically un-interceptable until late in the war.
-P-51; even though it's also the most overrated plane, it combined the advantages of P-47 and P-38 and expanded on them, again while being a lot cheaper. The best long range escort of the war.
-Me 262: too late, but basically half an era ahead of its adversaries at the time.
-A6M: the world's first carrier fighter that could keep up with the non-carrier fighers.
Hello KrazyKraut
excellent list
I'd agree almost complety. Maybe A6M wasn't first but probably first built in significant numbers and with significant combat participation. For ex A5M was a pretty good when it arrived and some earlier biplane carrier fighters too. But as I wrote excellent list and well balanced opinion.
Juha
excellent list
I'd agree almost complety. Maybe A6M wasn't first but probably first built in significant numbers and with significant combat participation. For ex A5M was a pretty good when it arrived and some earlier biplane carrier fighters too. But as I wrote excellent list and well balanced opinion.
Juha
IMHO the Ju87 was never very devastating in the early years. For instance, Dutch soldiers in 1940 were frequently attacked by these a/c, but hardly any died or were wounded while damage to equipment was minimal. The psychological effect of the stuka was another factor, though. When being confronted with the a/c for the first time, soldiers tend to panic. When soldiers got more experienced, the effectiveness of the stuka diminished rapidly and many were shot down.
KrazyKraut
Banned
- 337
- Apr 21, 2008
Thank you, Juha. I would agree with you that my statement on the A6M was maybe a bit too extreme, but it deserves to be in the list anyways.
Grebbeberg was one instance where Stukas played a significant role, routing a Dutch counter attack (or at least playing a significant role in that). During the invasion of Eben Emael they essentially filled the role that field guns normally would, knocking out several artillery emplacements and repelling a counter attack by Belgian forces. Their effort was essential and would be again so in France, giving pseudo-artillery support for quickly advancing troops. How many were shot down? I have no numbers at hand, but I remember losses were acceptable, especially considering they very often attacking without any escort.Marcel said:
The main weapon on the Grebbeberg that the Ju-87 had was terror. Most inexperienced troops freezed during attack (as most Dutch soldiers were to be honest). There weren't many deaths counted for by the Ju-87 on the Grebbe or anywhere els in the Netherlands. AFAIK there was only one attack by the Ju-87 where they did do serious damage to equipment/men in the Netherlands and that was their attack on the French tanks near Zevenbergen. But it was a key victory, though. Without it, the german para's in Dordrecht would have never held their position.
The Stuka's didn't need any escort as the ML was virtually non-existant after May 10th.
As for numbers of losses, I'll have to get back to you on that. I recall a number of 26, but I'll have to check on that.
Boss Calamari
Recruit
- 8
- Dec 1, 2008
Since this is just an open question I can say the Ki-43 was the best aircraft. It out turned it's enemies and was very light allowing it to climb fast. There are several variants of it, the best i think is the one armed with the two 12.7mm machine guns. I read somewhere that at least one had a gun of a strange caliber. It was like 23mm or 27mm i think. Anyway, sure it had didn't have as many guns as the hellcat but nevertheless it's two 12.7mm guns was sufficient. It's canopy is much more modern than that of the Zero's glassy greenhouse. It all comes down to experience. If one was inexperienced then the Hayabusa would be a falling flame but an expert pilot would be victorious and the king of the sky. Now that I'm blabbering I'd like to mention an account where a ki-27 shot down at least one p-40. I also read about a biplane warding off superior and numerous enemies on it's own during the war. These two pieces of evidence is sufficient in that we can acquiesce that experience was the major factor that made any craft superb during the war. I agree that the question is too bland.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Oscar best fighter? It was eventually shot down in droves. While it was extremely maneuverable and could be a formidable opponent in the hands of a good pilot, it was light and unarmored and basically became cannon fodder. Even the most veteran pilots flying the Oscar eventually found themselves either few in numbers or dead. Sorry but I think the final outcome speaks for it self.
As far as all-round best aircraft - the Oscar wouldn't be in the top 50 from WW2.
