Best WWII Air-Force

[drgondog]

Musing and wondering if Soren believes anything American during WWII deserved any respect by the LW? Its Ok to disdain Americans in General as brash and cocky but do you really believe that the American bombers were inferior to German bombers?

The one universal opinion (ok maybe 99%) is that the LW failed miserably in their approach to long range strategic airpower - both escort and bomber force - and it cost them the Battle of Britain and it prevented them from attacking Soviet industry.

They had no approach to even attack (repeatedly and successfully) airfields in Britain during 1943-1945 while even USAAF fighters roamed at will throughout Germany - and the LW could do nothing to stop them.

But we are here debating whether the B-29 was inferior to the vaunted German He and Me series that were never effective, couldn't operate and didn't contribute the the German war effort.

The He277 was as effective as the B-36 (meaning not effective at all) and inferior in design to the B-36 which would first fly one year after WWII was over.

The LW never put out a heavy bomber that was the equal of the B-17 much less the Lancaster or B-29. They have to function reliablly, operate and at least pose a concern to an Allied planner to be compared, shouldn't they?

Paper aircraft and impressive prototypes are interesting for debate - but if it's not in production and contributing why is it being discussed in the context of Best Air Force in WWII?

Soren - to your opinion that the RAF was the best in 1944 and 1945 how do you set the boundary conditions to make that judgement? Do you consider the relative strength of the 8th, 9th, 12th and 15th in the ETO against the RAF in its center of Gravity as a start? Would you postulate that the entire RAF was the equal of those four USAAF Air Forces? In numbers, in aircraft mix, in aircrews, in ability to project force from airborne drops and logistics support to long range fighter sweeps deep in Germany or Austria, to bombing oil targets ranging from Ploesti to Posnan?

Do you compare the RAF in the Pacific or even RAF plus RNZAF plus RAAF flying quite a few USAAF aircraft like P-51s, P-47s and B-25s against the USAAF? Do you consider the USN and USMC as 'excluded' from the concept of most powerful Airpower in 1944 and 1945?

Do you want to match tonnage dropped on tactical or strategic targets or number of GAF a/c destroyed? Or Japanese?

How do you arrive at your conclusion? Could you even make your point using just the United Army Air Force in the ETO/MTO in contrast to all the RAF, RNZAF, RAAF world wide?

Regards,

Bill

PS - Forgot to mention that the mainstay of the USSR Strategic Bomber Fleet for many years Post WWII was the exact copy of the B-29.. wonder why they didn't pick any of the many superior LW bombers to copy and produce instead of the lousy ol B Two Nine? Dumb Russians!

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Paper aircraft and impressive prototypes are interesting for debate - but if it's not in production and contributing why is it being discussed in the context of Best Air Force in WWII?

Bulls-eye!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Have to agree as well.

 

[syscom3]

Yes. Well said.

 

[Glider]

Sums it up pretty well.

 

[Soren]

Bill,

I have never disdained the Americans at all and so I'm going to have to ask where you've got that from ?? Its way too easy to just off-handedly condemn someone as biased, you're going to have to present some evidence.

As to why the He-177 He-277 didn't have as successfull a career as the B-17, Lancaster, B-29 etc etc, you can completely thank the huge numerical superiority enjoyed by the Allied airforces for that - this made sure that there wasn't enough fuel, trained crew or at all escorts for the German bombers to operate as intended.

In the air the Allies simply dwarfed the LW in numbers.

FLYBOYJ,

We are pretty much in full agreement.

Syscom3,

Check your sources please, the He-177 He-277's defensive armament is almost completely remote-controlled, the MG-81 pointing through a small circular opening in the cockpit glazing being manually aimed.

PS: Many German as-well as Italian bombers featured remote-controlled defensive armament far earlier than this.

 

[syscom3]

Syscom3,

Check your sources please, the He-177 He-277's defensive armament is almost completely remote-controlled, the MG-81 pointing through a small circular opening in the cockpit glazing being manually aimed.

PS: Many German as-well as Italian bombers featured remote-controlled defensive armament far earlier than this.

I did check my sources, and not one of them mentioned a Computerized Fire Control (CFC) system like that used on the B29.

YOU provide us with a source to prove your assertion.

 

[Soren]

I did check my sources, and not one of them mentioned a Computerized Fire Control (CFC) system like that used on the B29.

No Syscom3 and thats cause you haven't got a single source besides Wikipedia, read "Heinkel 177,277,274." by Manfred Griehl Joachim Dressel, ISBN: 1853103640. I just recently borrowed this book, its excellent and describes the enormous potential of these aircraft.

The He-177 He-277 both featured remote controlled defensive armament, and so did many other German designs (Ex. Condor) as-well as some Italian designs - the Piaggio P-108B being one. Just like the B-29 these all used a electric-hydraulic system to control their defensive armament.

 

[Glider]

I just recently borrowed this book, its excellent and describes the enormous potential of these aircraft.

The key word

 

[Soren]

Hadn't it been for the huge number of Allied fighters, the lack of fuel trained crew, and the fact that no escort was available then you can be absolutely sure that potential would've been excellently demonstrated.

 

[Soren]

Oh forgot to explain why I think the RAF is a strong contender to topic title at the end of the war.

The RAF possessed better defensive fighters ground attack a/c, and it featured Jets which could be used. The USAAF had good escorts, carrier fighters bombers. Its close..

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Hadn't it been for the huge number of Allied fighters, the lack of fuel trained crew, and the fact that no escort was available then you can be absolutely sure that potential would've been excellently demonstrated.

Thats the thing Soren. You can have all the potential you want for ever and ever and ever, if you cant turn that potential into superiority it does not matter. Potential is just that, it does not mean you are going to be superior. They never got past potential.

I dont care that there no fuel, I dont care that there were no trained pilots or inferiour numbers.

You have to have fuel to be the best, you have to have trained pilots to be the best. You have to have numbers to be the best.

 

[syscom3]

Soren, if you desire to include "potential" into your rankings, then you must also include the RAF's and USAAF's potential as well.

Did you know that when the war ended in August, over 1000 B32's were cancelled. And its "potential" as the bomber was already in small scale production and the factories were tooled up and ready to go.

Plus with the cancellation of the B17's, B25's, B26's and A20's, those plants were available to build whatever aircraft the AAF or USN wanted. And that includes more B29's or 'potentially", B50's and B36's.

So what ever potential you want to add for the LW, the same is applied to the RAF and AAF.

And one little thing you seem to forget...... only the AAF had the resources to build vast fleets of bombers AND fighters AND transports AND and have the crews to fly them.

Now regarding the CFC for the -277..... just in case you dont know what it is..... it was a computerized system that took optical and mechanical aiming data from specialized sighting mechanizisms located at five different locations in the plane and it allowed a single gunner the capability of controlling his gun or all of the guns, while controlling the turrets for az/el and target range.

The -277 did not have that feature, nor have enough gunners to effectively defend the plane.

Any way you look at it, the -277 was inferior to the B29. What counts is not whats on paper or prototypes, but what actually flies and goes on missions.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Potential didn't win WW2.....

 

[drgondog]

Oh forgot to explain why I think the RAF is a strong contender to topic title at the end of the war.

The RAF possessed better defensive fighters ground attack a/c, and it featured Jets which could be used. The USAAF had good escorts, carrier fighters bombers. Its close..

This is a decent example of what I perceive as bias on your part re; bias against things American. You could have said the same things about the LW at the end of the war - but having those features were useless against the power brought against them

The Americans had the BEST Escorts, at least three of the top Ground Attack Fighters - all equivalent to Tempest (the F4U, the P-47 and the P-38 ) in far greater numbers, and a little better than 'good' bombers. The B-29 was the BEST bomber. Had the BEST transport aircraft in the C-47s and C-54s, perhaps the BEST training aircraft in the AT-6 which was used in great numbers by all the Allies except Russia, had the BEST Medium Bombers in the A-26, B-26, B-25.

It supplied USSR Attack aircraft (P-39s and P63s) RAAF and RNZAF with P-47s and B-25s, RAAF built P-51s under license, RAF with C-47s, B-24s, PBYs, F4fs and F6Fs, etc, etc.

The Mosquito was perhaps the BEST multi role a/c and could have challenged title of Best medium bomber but that doesn't assign any weight to the BEST Air Power.

As to BEST defensive a/c? The P-80 was an excellent design, arrived in ETO in Italy in January 1945 but simply wasn't needed in ETO or Pacific but better than the Meteor and on par with the Me262 performance wise... and had a much higher ceiling. Had anyone had a bomber equivalent to B-29 it could have been re-armed with 4 20mm easily, but it was an escort or air superiority fighter. The F7F was deployed to PTO before WWII ended and would have been superb defensively against even the B-29.

But the BEST defensive aircraft were Luftwaffe, not RAF, in 1944-1945. As to the requirement for BEST defensive Fighters? How much tonnage did the LW or Japanese Air Forces drop on US Targets - so the argument about Best Defensive Fighter is not even relevant - the US Defensive capabilities were 'more than adequate' - in contrast with the best defensive aircraft (Luftwaffe) which were not 'good enough'

America had the MOST power, and could project it EVERYWHERE with relative impunity - land or sea based from late 1943 through today.

Soren - respectfully, it was not 'close' in 1944-1945. It (American Aipower) shouldered the Strategic load in both the ETO and the PTO, it broke the back of Luftwaffe and JNAF and JAF in both theatres, it destroyed the Japanese Fleet, and bombed German and Japanese industry into oblivion - without the Atomic Bomb.

No other Air Power can make those claims - not the RAF and not the RAF, RCAF, RNZAF and RAAF combined can make those claims.

If you were objective about 'America' this is one argument even you could support.

Regards,

Bill

 

[trackend]

Soren - respectfully, it was not 'close' in 1944-1945. It (American Aipower) shouldered the Strategic load in both the ETO and the PTO, it broke the back of Luftwaffe and JNAF and JAF in both theatres, it destroyed the Japanese Fleet, and bombed German and Japanese industry into oblivion - without the Atomic Bomb.


Regards,

Bill

I agree Bill that the USAAF was the best but I'm not totally convinced that in the ETO the Strategic load was shouldered by the USAAF eg: may 1944 38,000 tonnes dropped on Germany 29,000 on other targets by Bomber command as a prelude to the D day invasion. in the ETO I believe it was a joint effort,

 

[Glider]

Hadn't it been for the huge number of Allied fighters, the lack of fuel trained crew, and the fact that no escort was available then you can be absolutely sure that potential would've been excellently demonstrated.

The fact remains that Germany didn't have the escort, fuel, crews, production capacity etc and without those things, you cannot be the best airforce in WW2.

If you want to start a thread on the best potential airforce, then that is a different debate.

 

[syscom3]

The fact remains that Germany didn't have the escort, fuel, crews, production capacity etc and without those things, you cannot be the best airforce in WW2.

If you want to start a thread on the best potential airforce, then that is a different debate.

According to Soren, the RAF and AAF get points deducted for unfair fighting in a war.

 

[drgondog]

I agree Bill that the USAAF was the best but I'm not totally convinced that in the ETO the Strategic load was shouldered by the USAAF eg: may 1944 38,000 tonnes dropped on Germany 29,000 on other targets by Bomber command as a prelude to the D day invasion. in the ETO I believe it was a joint effort,

Trackend - love your avatar.

My perspective is that defeating Germany was a three way effort - take nothing away from RAF and Commonwealth or USSR.

Having said that, the RAF wasn't doing much on Aircraft and Oil or Ball Bearings until very late - in the context of precision bombing - and the RAF had developed what might have been the best precison bomb sight plus the radar bombing equipment and techniques.

Hence my comment on the Strategic load assumed by 8th, 12th and 15th AF which, combined, was the pretty close to the equivalent of the RAF in its entirety.

 

[Marcel]

The Fokker GI was potentionally one of the best twin engined fighters, the G2 was "more potentionally" an even better aircraft, so I'll vote for the LVA being the best

Okay, I admit, I'm biased

But seriously, I still think it's unfair to say that the USAAF was the best only because of the latter part of the war. IMHO the USAAF was really not so good when they got into the war in 1942. Okay, they catched up really fast and from 1944 but if being the best in only a part of the war does qualify for being the best of the total war, then the LW could easily be called the best as well, as they were the best in the first 3 years. So it's not so easy to say which one was best, probably none at al, the war was won by a joined effort, not one single country/army/airforce!