Best WWII Air-Force

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

If you go back and read the posts you will see that I said from 1939 to 1943 the Luftwaffe was the best but from that point on the the US took over.

Overall the best airforce of the war was the US if you look from where they started to where they finished.

 

[syscom3]

Not to dispute your point Adler, but also the US was not the best during the entire war. At the end (1944-1945) yes, but when the US got involved in 1941 it was lacking in equipment. Their main fighters, the P39 and P40 were a nice planes but hardly a match to the contemporary Spitfire of Messerschmitt. Also the US had a lot of catching up to do in airforce tactics at that time. Luckily they learned fast. So if you're talking about the time from mid 1943 to the end of the war, I would say, yes, the USAAF was the best airforce in almost every aspect (except maybe in the area of jets). They had equipment, that was at least as good as everything the enemy had and they had a lot of it. But not so in 1942.
It's probably hard to say which airforce was best during the entire war. The germans were the best in 1939-1942. The americans after 1943. If I would point out an airforce that was very good during the entire war, it would be the RAF. Maybe they were never the best at any point, but they kept their high standard of modern, competative planes in decent numbers during the entire war, best on average I would say.

Your arguments are fine when talking about the first few years of the war. No argument. But its who's standing at the end that counts.

In 1944, the USAAF became the dominate AF in the world.

By the end of the war in 1945, it was getting more powerfull at an exponential rate.

 

[Marcel]

Exactly, the US the best of the war at the end, no dispute here. The LW the best at the beginning of the war, again no dispute here. But both a part of the war is what I'm saying. The RAF was at no particular point the best, I agree, but they could get along, fight the LW in 1940 and win and were still going strong in the end, maybe not the best, but always competative during the entire war, in my opinion, that's why I say "on average"

 

[trackend]

I think the USAAF was probably dominate before 1944 SY the production, development and training capabilities was not effected by bombing or lack of materials to anywhere near the extent that most other air forces had been.

 

[Marcel]

That's true, it's probably why the ended up being the mightiest airforce in the end, but in 1942.. I don't know.

 

[syscom3]

I think the USAAF was probably dominate before 1944 SY the production, development and training capabilities was not effected by bombing or lack of materials to anywhere near the extent that most other air forces had been.

Untill the P51's and P38L's came into being, then I would say the LW was slightly better than the USAAF.

Once those fighters began roaming Germany almost at will and systematiclly hunting down the LW, then the ending was clear.

 

[Soren]

Syscom3,

The B-29 was certainly an up to date design, no doubt, but again it wasn't more advanced than the newest German designs, the He-177 He-277 both being competitive able to carry a larger load (Btw, just like the He-177 the B-29 suffered engine troubles as-well) - and on top of this the Germans were fielding the much more advanced Jet fighters bombers as-well as better more advanced piston engined fighters.

In terms of technology the Germans were well ahead by wars end, and this has been admitted many times by the Allies. The Allies however possessed a far greater industrial capacity, and could therefore mass produce many able designs in such huge numbers that the German lead in technology was more than made up for.

Take the war on land for example, the tank being absolutely decisive, the German tanks were far far superior to the Allied tanks, but with a numerical advantage of over 6 to 1 the Allies again simply overran the grossly outnumbered Germans - quantity over quality.

Untill the P51's and P38L's came into being, then I would say the LW was slightly better than the USAAF.

P-38L ?? The Germans thought of it as a pig and it didn't do very well against the LW fighters at all - all it did rather well was pound the German ground forces. The P-38 did well as a fighter in the PTO where it was significantly faster than its opponents, in the ETO however it wasn't fast or maneuverable compared to the single seat fighters and it did poorly.

The P-51 on the other hand was a great asset to the US airforce as it had long range and was very competitive at the altitudes where the bombers operated, and the fact that in the air it was present in far greater numbers than the dedicated LW fighters generally was piloted by better trained pilots proved very decisive as-well.

Once those fighters began roaming Germany almost at will and systematiclly hunting down the LW, then the ending was clear.

The P-51 proved very important because of its range performance at high alt, the P-38 had no appreciable impact on the war, the P-47 Tempest both did much better.

Lets all just be thankful that the LW didn't get the Me-262 in 1943 as planned, that would've changed the course of the war dramatically.


_______________________________

Adler,

All your pointing out is that the US airforce was the most powerful, not that it was the best - the fact that the LW lacked trained pilots means it wasn't the best by late 1943 and onwards, despite its advantage in aircraft design equipment.

The RAF is infact as strong a candidate in 1944 to 1945 as the USAAF.

As to which special purpose a/c the Allies lacked, well, what equalant special purpose a/c did the allies have compared to the Me-323 Hs-129 for example ?

 

[syscom3]

Syscom3,

The B-29 was certainly an up to date design, no doubt, but again it wasn't more advanced than the newest German designs, the He-177 He-277 both being competitive able to carry a larger load (Btw, just like the He-177 the B-29 suffered engine troubles as-well) - and on top of this the Germans were fielding the much more advanced Jet fighters bombers as-well as better more advanced piston engined fighters.

You must be the only person in the world that thinks the -177 and -277 to be superior airplanes compared to the B29. And those engine troubles on the B29 were pretty much solved (from an operations point of view) in 1944 so that B29's were flying missions at a pretty decent sortie rate.

Do you have any mission summaries you would like to share with us to prove your assertion the German bombers were superior? And ummmm....... a few airplanes at the of the war, that hardly worked as advertised, does not make them superior.

In terms of technology the Germans were well ahead by wars end, and this has been admitted many times by the Allies.

Agree'd but for one caveat..... none of those advanced weapons made it to the mass production stage and/or changed the outcome of a battle.

The Allies however possessed a far greater industrial capacity, and could therefore mass produce many able designs in such huge numbers that the German lead in technology was more than made up for.

To put it simply, the allies mass producing weapons that in some cases were superior to what the Germans fielded, and in other cases, they were slightly inferior but were fielded in such massive numbers, the Germans could not gain the advantage. That means the Allied industrial capability was so immense, it negated the Germans advantage where it counted.

Take the war on land for example,

This is about the war in the air.

P-38L ?? The Germans thought of it as a pig and it didn't do very well against the LW fighters at all - all it did rather well was pound the German ground forces. The P-38 did well as a fighter in the PTO where it was significantly faster than its opponents, in the ETO however it wasn't fast or maneuverable compared to the single seat fighters and it did poorly.

You're thinking about its capabilities as a dogfighter, not in a macro sense. Of course it was an inferior dogfighter. But it was good enough as an escort fighter to keep the LW fighters away from the bombers. Mission accomplished for that. And then theres the range issue of the P38 vs the -109 and -190. The Lightning could fly to any point in the Western Europe, strafe, bomb, intercept.... and return home. The LW did not have that option.

And in the Pacific, its range did make all the difference n the world regarding what was the best fighter in that theater. The 109 and 190 didnt have the range needed to compete. So, the USAAF gets points for having a wide variety of fighters that could perform any misison, anywhere in the world.

The P-51 proved very important because of its range performance at high alt, the P-38 had no appreciable impact on the war, the P-47 Tempest both did much better.

See, youre thinking only in terms of the ETO and MTO. It was the P38 that won the air war in the SW Pacific and flew the 1600 mile radius missions.

Lets all just be thankful that the LW didn't get the Me-262 in 1943 as planned, that would've changed the course of the war dramatically.

That is a reflection of one of two things..... faulty technology and pushing an airplane into operation before it was ready.... or.... even worse...... a flawed command system that didnt know it had a first class interceptor and didnt use it wisely.


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Adler,

All your pointing out is that the US airforce was the most powerful, not that it was the best - the fact that the LW lacked trained pilots means it wasn't the best by late 1943 and onwards, despite its advantage in aircraft design equipment.

The RAF is infact as strong a candidate in 1944 to 1945 as the USAAF.

Soren, you remind me of someone in hockey who complains to the ref that the other team is playing to rough.

And just what did the RAF possess in those years that made them as strong as the USAAF?

As to which special purpose a/c the Allies lacked, well, what equalant special purpose a/c did the allies have compared to the Me-323 Hs-129 for example ?

C47, C46, C54 and, P47 and Typhoon for the other.

 

[Marcel]

And just what did the RAF possess in those years that made them as strong as the USAAF?

Spitfire, Tempest, Lancaster, Mustang, C47, Typhone, Mosquito, Halifax

 

[Glider]

Mustang, C47 ????

 

[rpiereck]

Brazilian Air Force... Senta a Púa!!

 

[lesofprimus]

Thats just retarded...

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Syscom3,

The B-29 was certainly an up to date design, no doubt, but again it wasn't more advanced than the newest German designs, the He-177 He-277 both being competitive able to carry a larger load

Multi-engine tail draggers - their configuration was out of date!

The B-29 was light years a head of both aircraft, one of them being nothing more than a prototype and even with the B-29s teething problems it was still a way more capable aircraft than the 177 and it carried a bigger bomb load than both 177 and 277.

 

[Marcel]

Mustang, C47 ????

I know, american build , but we're comparing airforces, not manufacturers. And the Mustang original was a British order.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Adler,

All your pointing out is that the US airforce was the most powerful, not that it was the best - the fact that the LW lacked trained pilots means it wasn't the best by late 1943 and onwards, despite its advantage in aircraft design equipment.

And you still have not answered my questions about how the Luftwaffe was the best airforce. In order to be the best you have to have all these things you mentioned.

Just because you have technological advances in some areas does not mean you are the best. If you dont have air superiority you are not the best. True Germany did not have the industrial capacity to field as many aircraft but you know what this is not about who had the most industrial capacity. It is about the best airforce.

As to which special purpose a/c the Allies lacked, well, what equalant special purpose a/c did the allies have compared to the Me-323 Hs-129 for example ?

Germany did not need these so called "special purpose" aircraft to win a war. If they did they would have won the war.

As for the Me-323 it is not a "special purpose" aircraft. It is a heavy transport. What good did it do to the Luftwaffe to have this very slow aircraft? Nothing. The USAAF did not have it because it was not needed. The Luftwaffe proved it was not needed, it had not effect in winning the war for them.

As for the Hs-129 again it is not a "special purpose" aircraft. It is nothing more than a ground attack aircraft/tank buster and this the USAAF did have.

They had plenty of aircraft that were just as good at destroying tanks and ground attack and support, ie....P-47 Thunderbolt, A-20 Havoc, A-26 Invader, etc...

They all were better performers than the Hs-129 anyhow. I really like the Hs-129 and think that with better engines it could have been the best ground attack aircaft of the war, but without those engines it was underperforming armoured flying vehical. Nothing else. Nothing special basically.

Besides the Hs 129 was only good if it was protected by fighters and the fighters were too busy shooting down bombers.

USAAF was the best airforce by the end of war and overall do to its position at the end of the war.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Brazilian Air Force... Senta a Púa!!

You are kidding right?

 

[The Basket]

I am always amazed at what Finland achieved with what little airpower she had.

If you can make the Brewster Buffalo into a successful fighter then top marks to them.

USAAF wins easy.

B-29s armed with atomic weapons and escorted with P-51s.
I call that best air force in my book.

 

[Soren]

Multi-engine tail draggers - their configuration was out of date!

What ?!

The B-29 was light years a head of both aircraft, one of them being nothing more than a prototype

Thats incorrect, the He-277 wasn't just a prototype, it was finished well before wars end, the Fighter-defence program made sure both the He-177 -277 didn't see much action though and is the pure reason for the low service record - trained pilots and fuel was missing. And in the few mission carried out escorts were missing.

The B-29 wasn't ahead any way other than having a larger payload.

and even with the B-29s teething problems it was still a way more capable aircraft than the 177

Way more capable ? The He-177 -277 were both structurally more sound and could go just as fast their engine teething problems were solved as-well. And the He-277 had a much higher ceiling, a full 15km, thats just 100m short of the Ta-152H-1's ceiling.

I'd sure like to see the Allies try to catch the He-277 going 500 + km/h at 15km ! - an impossible task for them. The B-29 on the other hand could easily be intercepted by German fighters.

and it carried a bigger bomb load than both 177 and 277.

Yes you're actually right about the bomb-load, I got my reference wrong, the B-29 could carry a massive max bomb-load, 20,000 + kg's worth of bombs - the He-277 could carry roughly 20,000 kg's worth of bombs. The He-177 with its ~12,000kg max bomb-load could still carry more than the Lancaster, B-24 B-17 though, plus it was much faster, which is impressive.

Interestingly the Germans had the Ju-390 that beats all three with a max bomb load of over 26,000 kg !! Range is much longer than all of the above as-well, an incredibly long 6,039 miles ! And despite the huge bombload speed is an impressive 505 km/h and the ceiling 6km with full bomb load. This baby even reached the coast of the US during WW2.. (This could only be done with a very light bombload though)

Or what about the Me-264, with a speed of 560 km/h, a max bomb-load of 23,000 + kg, a range of 6,250 miles, and a service ceiling of 8km with full bomb-load. A very impressive aircraft, although cancelled with the initiation of the Fighter-defence program.

Another plus of the German bombers is they carried a better defensive armament consisting of 20mm cannons.

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Adler,

I didn't say the LW was the best by 1944-1945, I infact said it wasn't because of the lack of trained pilots fuel, despite its clear advantage in aircraft design equipment.

The RAF is a strong contender for the best airforce of 1944 to 1945.

As to the special purpose a/c - I'm sure the Allies would've liked to have the Me-323 very much, cause they could effectively escort it with their huge number of available fighters - nevermind the low speed, its a high load transport plane which can carry loads no other a/c of the era can.

The Allies didn't possess as good a tankbuster as the Hs-129, it was better armed, armored and a more stabile gun platform than any Allied ground attack aircraft. The problem with its engines were solved pretty early btw.

And to your other comment about the Hs-129's combat effectiveness, well any of the dedicated ground-attack a/c of WW2 were vulnerable unless escorted by fighters - so thats a pretty moot point to make.
Their combat performance was great on the eastern front where they proved absolutely essential tools to the LW.

 

[Hunter368]

This looks like its going to be fun.

Where is my popcorn damn it!

 

[FLYBOYJ]

By WW2 a tail dragger multi engine aircraft was a dinosaur - a hazard to operate, from loading it with bombs to landing, it was an obsolete configuration. Right there both aircraft were off to a bad start.

Thats incorrect, the He-277 wasn't just a prototype, it was finished well before wars end, the Fighter-defence program made sure both the He-177 -277 didn't see much action though and is the pure reason for the low service record - trained pilots and fuel was missing. And in the few mission carried out escorts were missing.

The B-29 wasn't ahead any way other than having a larger payload.

Fire control, pressurization, internal avionics, configuration were all superior to both 177 and 277. Not to say the Germans didn't have better of each, the B-29 just put it all together into one weapons' system that worked and that's what made it superior to both 177 and 277. Besides several hundred B-29s were able to be produced a month with ease, to even say Germany had the capability to produce the 177 or 277 in the numbers the B-29 was being produced is nonsense.

Way more capable ? The He-177 -277 were both structurally more sound and could go just as fast their engine teething problems were solved as-well. And the He-277 had a much higher ceiling, a full 15km, thats just 100m short of the Ta-152H-1's ceiling.

You're speculating both aircraft "would of" operated as advertised and based on the 177 I find that unlikely.

I'd sure like to see the Allies try to catch the He-277 going 500 + km/h at 15km ! - an impossible task for them. The B-29 on the other hand could easily be intercepted by German fighters.

"Would of could of should of" - for that matter "IF" the 177 or 277 made it into significant numbers and deployed in a capacity where they were to be intercepted, then you might of had say a P-58 intercepting them, top speed in excess of 450 mph and specifically designed to take on aircraft like the He 177

Yes you're actually right about the bomb-load, I got my reference wrong, the B-29 could carry a massive max bomb-load, 20,000 + kg's worth of bombs - the He-277 could carry roughly 20,000 kg's worth of bombs. The He-177 with its ~12,000kg max bomb-load could still carry more than the Lancaster, B-24 B-17 though, plus it was much faster, which is impressive.

It was and never deployed in numbers to mean anything...

Interestingly the Germans had the Ju-390 that beats all three with a max bomb load of over 26,000 kg !! Range is much longer than all of the above as-well, an incredibly long 6,039 miles ! And despite the huge bombload speed is an impressive 505 km/h and the ceiling 6km with full bomb load. This baby even reached the coast of the US during WW2.. (This could only be done with a very light bombload though)

Or what about the Me-264, with a speed of 560 km/h, a max bomb-load of 23,000 + kg, a range of 6,250 miles, and a service ceiling of 8km with full bomb-load. A very impressive aircraft, although cancelled with the initiation of the Fighter-defence program.

All true but don't forget while the B-29 was in gestation the B-29D was being developed which took care of all problems first encountered with the B-29. the B-29D became the B-50...

Crew: 8: Pilot, co-pilot, flight engineer, radio/electronic countermeasures operator, 2 side gunners, top gunner, and tail gunner
Length: 99 ft 0 in (30.2 m)
Wingspan: 141 ft 3 in (43.1 m)
Height: 32 ft 8 in (10.0 m)
Wing area: 1736 ft² (161.3 m²)
Empty weight: 80,610 lb (36,560 kg)
Loaded weight: 121,850 lb (55,270 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 173,000 lb (78,470 kg)
Powerplant: 4× Pratt Whitney R-4360 radial engines, 3,500 hp (2,600 kW) each
Performance
Maximum speed: 395 mph (343 knots, 636 km/h) Cruise speed: 244 mph (212 knots, 393 km/h)
Combat radius: 2,100 nm (2,400 mi, 3,860 km)
Ferry range: 5,000 nm (5,760 mi, 9,270 km)
Service ceiling: 36,650 ft (11,170 m)
Rate of climb: 2,225 ft/min (11.3 m/s)
Wing loading: 70.19 lb/ft² (343 kg/m²)
Power/mass: 0.115 hp/lb (193 W/kg)
Armament
Guns:

12× .50 in (12.7 mm) M2 Browning machine guns in remote controlled turrets
1× 20 mm (0.787 in) cannon in tail
Bombs:

20,000 lb (9,100 kg) internally
8,000 lb (3,600 kg) on external hardpoints