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DRGONDOG:
I dont have it handy, as it is buried in a thread somewhere (I think it was the "most effective bomber" thread).
I'll re-read it to see if I can find it
Flyboy and Deradler can vouche for it, as I was proven wrong in my assesment that daylight bombing made for better accuracy.
There is a segment of the USSBS on the oil plant attacks that clearly stated that bombs of 4000 Lbs or more were needed to destroy the industrial machinery in the plants. The 500 and 1000 pounders could bring down the roof and maybe the walls, but not inflict permanent damage.
I do remember the reference to 2,000 pounders being more effective on foundaries, and bombs of 4,000 or more on submarine pens - but the 500/1,000 pounders were more than adequate for all the refinery equipment, rail centers, a/c factories, bridges (NOT concrete abutments)
The RAF method of bombing a target over a extended period of time was found to be far more usefull than the AAF daylight attacks due to all the repair crews (at the targets) having to stay in their bunkers for hours on end.
Interesting only in proportion to starting the reconstruction perhaps hours earlier?
I believe the accuracy of the RAF crews was better than the AAF due to them bombing at lower altitudes, and not relying on a single bombardier in a whole squadron to determine the bomb release points.
Low(er) altitude bombing with Oboe or other radio based techniques at night over blacked out cities or targets were not as effective as precision daylight bombing on days in which the targets could be seen.
So which approach are we discussing?
There is a segment of the USSBS on the oil plant attacks that clearly stated that bombs of 4000 Lbs or more were needed to destroy the industrial machinery in the plants. The 500 and 1000 pounders could bring down the roof and maybe the walls, but not inflict permanent damage.
Small Bombs Stopped Production, but Did It the Hard Way
The small bombs generally used against German oü-chemical targets were capable of creating breaks in vital utilities systems, there temporarily shutting off plant production, but only very rarely were small bombs able to, destroy vital equipment. (During the oil offensive average size of all the 508,512 high-explosive bombs dropped on oil producing targets by the USAAF was 388 lb, and of the 263,942 dropped by the RAF, 660 lb. The average for both air forces was 480 lb.) Winning a war with small bombs requires a tremendous airforce, but this is possibly the only choice open if visual sighting is not possible or if vital aiming points are not chosen.
Only Large Bombs Destroy Vital Process Equipment
Few large bombs were used against German oil-chemical plants, and most of these were dropped by the RAF. It is the unanimous conviction of all Oil Division observers that, under bombing conditions which permit sighting on a specific aiming point and with reasonable bombing accuracy, heavy bombs (2,000 to 4,000 lb., instantaneously fuzed) are several times as effective per ton as the lightweight bombs (500 lb. or less) used principally against German oil targets
The RAF method of bombing a target over a extended period of time was found to be far more usefull than the AAF daylight attacks due to all the repair crews (at the targets) having to stay in their bunkers for hours on end.
Larger Raids Would Have Been More Effective
The short duration of most USAAF raids enabled German defense personnel to leave shelter in time to deal with incendiaries and incipient fires before conflagrations were started. Because of the longer duration and lack of uniformity of RAF raids - each bombardier sighted his own bombs independently, whereas the customary practice in the Eighth Air Force was for pilots to release their bombs on a signal from the lead plane - RAF attacks were. By almost unanimous agreement among the Germans interrogated, more terrifying and more damaging. Had it been found possible, with the limitations imposed by operational considerations, to vary the length and pattern of USAAF raids, greater results would have been achieved for the same expenditure in bombs.
DRGONDOG:
I dont have it handy, as it is buried in a thread somewhere (I think it was the "most effective bomber" thread).
I'll re-read it to see if I can find it
Flyboy and Deradler can vouche for it, as I was proven wrong in my assesment that daylight bombing made for better accuracy.
There is a segment of the USSBS on the oil plant attacks that clearly stated that bombs of 4000 Lbs or more were needed to destroy the industrial machinery in the plants. The 500 and 1000 pounders could bring down the roof and maybe the walls, but not inflict permanent damage.
I do remember the reference to 2,000 pounders being more effective on foundaries, and bombs of 4,000 or more on submarine pens - but the 500/1,000 pounders were more than adequate for all the refinery equipment, rail centers, a/c factories, bridges (NOT concrete abutments)
The RAF method of bombing a target over a extended period of time was found to be far more usefull than the AAF daylight attacks due to all the repair crews (at the targets) having to stay in their bunkers for hours on end.
Interesting only in proportion to starting the reconstruction perhaps hours earlier?
I believe the accuracy of the RAF crews was better than the AAF due to them bombing at lower altitudes, and not relying on a single bombardier in a whole squadron to determine the bomb release points.
I think we're discussing bombing overall.
There's little doubt that in perfect conditions the USAAF could bomb very accurately. The problem is Europe rarely had perfect conditions, and German smoke screens made things worse.
The USSBS report Syscom referred to gave a sample of attacks on 3 large oil refineries, Leuna, Ludwigshafen-Oppau, Zeitz. The plants covered a total of 3.5 square miles between them.
30,000 tons of bombs, 146,000 bombs in total.
Air Force Percentage of Hits Within the Plants
8th AF visual aiming 26.8%
8th AF, part visual aiming and part instrument 12.4%
8th AF, full instrument 5.4%
RAF, night Pathfinder technique 15.8%
Weighted average 12.6%
What you can see from that is that the USAAF was accurate when using visual aiming, poor when using radar aids, atrocious when using purely radar aids. The RAF was worse than USAAF visual methods, better than USAAF radar methods.
Basic agreement with your conclusions
The overall average was below the RAF's average, which means the USAAF put fewer bombs on target than the RAF.We can't say how many fewer without knowing the amount of bombs each force dropped.
OOPs! Are we now comparing the precision of a raid on Cologne by RAF in which a bomb dropped within city limit is counted with same context as that of a 1000' CEP from aiming point for a USAAF 'blind bombing' attack? Or just the example above. And given that USAAF made 11 times the attacks just on Leuna alone than RAF it will be difficult to say RAF put more bombs on target?
What was the mode (i.e were both RAF raids on Luena Pathfinder attacks while the 22 were mixed for USAAF)and standard for accuracy for the figures you just quoted for the Oil targets (combined)
Hop - I believe that conclusion is probably seriously flawed as the number of raids by RAF on Oils and Chemicals was far lower - see below as an example and I fully realize Luena is not by itself enough of a statistical sampleto derive conclusions from
Hop - on page 42 of the "Excerpts from USSBS", the report points out three specific statistics for Leuna alone as an Illustration:
1. The USAAF made 22 attacks, the RAF 2
2. The total tonnage dropped was 18,328 Tons
3. The importance of the Target was so high that 8th AF committed to steady, frequent and large attacks independent of weather, and many attacks were made in miserable conditions for precision bombing.
So, we have to be a little circumspect in drawing general conclusions about accuracy and even 'relative' bombing effectiveness, when talking about Oil Targets.
Even moreso if we wish to compare RAF efforts and commitment to these attacks versus USAAF. Luena was so important that 8th AF was not attacking Leuna with ordinary and customary planning doctrine (i.e Good weather for visual bombing).
QUOTE]
Hop - ordinarily I wouldn't dive into the statistics debates but I am reminded that many times the comments in the survey are reproduced, sometimes without complete context.
The survey was very explicit about RAF efforts not materially impacting German war production until late 1944 when they devoted more missions and tonnage to German industry.
The USAAF (ETO) finished the war with more tonnage dropped on Germany than the RAF and was the key factor in destroying German industry.
I was suprised that with nearly 80,000 causalties each that the RAF and USAAF-ETO was separated by only 16.. 79,265 (USAAF) to 79,281 (RF)
One thing is for certain in the ETO, and that was clear sky's for effective daylight bombing were far and few between.
The 8th AF war diary (By Roger freeman) indicates that most of the attacks were not visual, and many times the primaries were obscured and the secondaries were attacked.
This is particularly true of Late Fall and Winter. However the Secondaries were often attacked with visual runs when the Primary wasn't available.
As for bomb hit percentages..... I'm still looking for that document that showed the RAF had a better CEP overall than the AAF. It does exist, and I'm not bloviating or making things up.
OOPs! Are we now comparing the precision of a raid on Cologne by RAF in which a bomb dropped within city limit is counted with same context as that of a 1000' CEP from aiming point for a USAAF 'blind bombing' attack? Or just the example above.
What was the mode (i.e were both RAF raids on Luena Pathfinder attacks
Hop - I believe that conclusion is probably seriously flawed as the number of raids by RAF on Oils and Chemicals was far lower
So, we have to be a little circumspect in drawing general conclusions about accuracy and even 'relative' bombing effectiveness, when talking about Oil Targets.
Even moreso if we wish to compare RAF efforts and commitment to these attacks versus USAAF. Luena was so important that 8th AF was not attacking Leuna with ordinary and customary planning doctrine (i.e Good weather for visual bombing).
The survey was very explicit about RAF efforts not materially impacting German war production until late The Ball-Bearing AttackThe Ball-Bearing Attack when they devoted more missions and tonnage to German industry.
The Ball-Bearing Attack
From examination of the records and personalities in the ball-bearing industry, the user industries and the testimony of war production officials, there is no evidence that the attacks on the ball-bearing industry had any measurable effect on essential war production.
The Attack on German Aircraft Plants
The culminating attacks on the German aircraft industry began in the last week of February 1944. With the protection of long-range fighter escort, 3,636 tons of bombs were dropped on German aircraft plants (again, airframe rather than engine plants) during that week. In that and succeeding weeks every known aircraft plant in Germany was hit.
<snip>
Production was not knocked out for long. On the contrary, during the whole year of 1944 the German air force is reported to have accepted a total of 39,807 aircraft of all types -- compared with 8,295 in 1939, or 15,596 in 1942 before the plants suffered any attack. Although it is difficult to determine exact production for any single month, acceptances were higher in March, the month after the heaviest attack, than they were in January, the month before. They continued to rise.
<snip>
Nevertheless the attack on the aircraft plants, like the attack on the ball-bearing plants, showed that to knock out a single industry with the weapons available in 1943 and early 1944 was a formidable enterprise demanding continuous attacks to effect complete results. Recovery was improvised almost as quickly as the plants were knocked out.
The Attack on Oil
Production from the synthetic plants declined steadily and by July 1944 every major plant had been hit. These plants were producing an average of 316,000 tons per month when the attacks began. Their production fell to 107,000 tons in June and 17,000 tons in September. Output of aviation gasoline from synthetic plants dropped from 175,000 tons in April to 30,000 tons in July and 5,000 tons in September. Production recovered somewhat in November and December, but for the rest of the war was but a fraction of pre-attack output.
The USAAF (ETO) finished the war with more tonnage dropped on Germany
I was suprised that with nearly 80,000 causalties each that the RAF and USAAF-ETO was separated by only 16.. 79,265 (USAAF) to 79,281 (RF)
Hop - by your own statistics above the Oil campaign was hugely successful in the Spring and Summer of 1944... but certainly devastating from Speer's perspective in the Sprin alone.
Speer's own words on page 350 "Inside the Third reich" were
"On June 21,Nine tenths of the production of airplane fuel was knocked out."
"On July 22, we were down to one hundred and twenty tons daily production - virtually done for.
Where were your figures derived showing USAAF at such a low total for ETO?
I would certainly say that it is between the RAF and Luftwaffe.
The RAF had a limited amount of money and more importantly time, to develop good aircraft for both attacking and defensive roles. Unlike America, Britain fought from 1939, yet America did not become her ally.
You have certainly confused me - did the US align with Germay?
The spitfire was an ancient desing by the end of the war, but it worked because it was a solide design that could be altered. No American aircraft alsted that long.
I suspect that the C-47 (1935-today), (B-17 (1935-1946), the P-38 (1939-1949), the F4U (1940-1955), the A-26 (1942-1973), the P-51(1940-mid 80s in service), the P-47 (1941-1955), B-29 (1942-1984) are a few American aircraft that did not last long? and would not qualify for longevity by your standards?(
America had a huge economy to fuel it's airforce, yet struggled to produce decent carrier aircraft until the Hellcat and Corsair.
You would describe the F4F as dogmeat in 1941-1942? And how many decent carrier aircraft did RAF, Luftwaffe, Soviets produce - including torpedo bombers, dive bombers, night fighters, and even the ubiquitous F7F and F8F comparable quality?
The luftwaffe developed some extarordinary aircraft, especially near the end of the war with little funding and resources. The planes matched anyone elses for ages and only lost air supremacy to lack of numbers, again due to a huge american economy........
Is that why during Operation Torch the Wildcat took on and was successful against French and German fighters? And there was one account in the North Sea where Wildcats held their own quite well against Bf 109s.Hopeless against the Fw 190. The Wildcat would have been dogmeat against the latest German fighters.
As for bomb hit percentages..... I'm still looking for that document that showed the RAF had a better CEP overall than the AAF. It does exist, and I'm not bloviating or making things up.
I would certainly say that it is between the RAF and Luftwaffe.
The RAF had a limited amount of money and more importantly time, to develop good aircraft for both attacking and defensive roles. Unlike America, Britain fought from 1939, yet America did not become her ally. The spitfire was an ancient desing by the end of the war, but it worked because it was a solide design that could be altered. No American aircraft alsted that long.
America had a huge economy to fuel it's airforce, yet struggled to produce decent carrier aircraft until the Hellcat and Corsair.
The luftwaffe developed some extarordinary aircraft, especially near the end of the war with little funding and resources. The planes matched anyone elses for ages and only lost air supremacy to lack of numbers, again due to a huge american economy........
....No American aircraft alsted that long.
America had a huge economy to fuel it's airforce, yet struggled to produce decent carrier aircraft until the Hellcat and Corsair.
The luftwaffe developed some extarordinary aircraft, especially near the end of the war with little funding and resources. The planes matched anyone elses for ages and only lost air supremacy to lack of numbers, again due to a huge american economy........