Best WWII Air-Force

syscom3 · Feb 24, 2007

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
Great I can see this now. A pissing match at whos country has the biggest balls. Oh yeah my country can kick your countries ass... Oh yeah my countries daddy is bigger than your countries daddy...

Not at all.

If you have to look at this in macro sense.

1) Did the country have a scientific base in which to develope totally new weapons?

2) Did the country have a technological base in which to convert scientific advances into a usable product?

3) Did the country have an industrial base in which to build a lot of products without going bankrupt?

4) Did the country have the capacity to change production in the middle of a "run" and incorporate the newest changes , all without shutting the line down?

5) Did the country have the capacity to train lots of pilots that had a good chance of surviving their first missions in combat?

6) Did the country have the capacity to maintain all the planes in the field?

The US excelled so much in the production of aircraft and pilot training, that it dwarfs the runner up(s).

I would also say that the USN carrier pilots were arguably the best in the world. And there were so many of them, they would have qualified as being a whole seperate AF in the ranking.

pbfoot · Feb 24, 2007

ndicki said:
pbfoot, the question was "best", not "biggest" - there was no way that the individual quality of USAAF, USN and USMC air and ground crews were as good as their Empire equivalents! Just look at navigation; during the day, boxes of B-17s or B-24s were navigated by the lead aircraft only, with the other navigators in the formation following. RAF and Dominion aircraft, Lancs, Halibags or Stirlings by this time, were navigating individually to the target - admittedly with some pretty sophisticated aids which the Americans did not use by day - and achieving similar or better results.

The leadership orientation of 8th USAAF consisted essentially in ignoring everything the RAF had already learnt about flying over Germany in daylight, and getting huge numbers of men killed uselessly while they learnt the lessons again. That changed in 1944 with the advent of the P-51 in sufficient numbers, and with the decline in capacity of the Luftwaffe, but it was still a case of mindless obstinacy at the cost of thousands of lives. They had much the same approach to ground tactics, too, I seem to remember. Not the best air force. Sorry.

and the reply was for the best I don't really think that Harris matched up to Spaatz nor Arnold what did the RAF ignore daylight bombing big deal the reason the RAF/we didn't is because we couldn't stand the losses of equipment or men
. The RAF/we didn't crush the LW it was the USAAF with their daylight missions over Europe

Trust me I'm quite proud of our accomplishments and would like to believe as you think but being realistic I can't honestly back that theory

Soundbreaker Welch? · Feb 24, 2007

I voted for the USAF and the RAF. What other Airforce could man over a 1,000 plane raids every day? The US Air Force. The British were close but such a number was exhausting for them to keep up on a daily basis, no offence. I admit, the United States is lucky in being so big and with a lot of mechanically minded people. We made our war machine simpler than any others and so we made a lot, a lot, a lot, more than was needed.

The RAF with the Battle of Britain, second Battle of Britain, Defeat of Rommel in Africa, Firebombing cities better than the Germans, earns it a place along side the USAF.

I think the Luftwaffe was great, but Hitler made Goring do dumb things and it never was operated to it's best capacity. Look at Africa. Kesselring couldn't give Rommel good air support. Even if he had decided that Malta was more important than Africa, why didn't he destroy it's defences? Because the Luftwaffe didn't hit Malta with all it got, The Germans lost Africa, the Mediterranean Sea, and Italy.

The Luftwaffe was handled poorly in supporting Nazi troops at Stalingrad. The whole "Air Bridge" idea out of Gorings brain didn't work.
Where was the Luftwaffe on D-day?
Couldn't the Luftwaffe have done any better in preventing the Eighth Force from sacking Germany the way it did? The bloodied the bombers very well, but I still wonder.

The Luftwaffe had all the weapons and men to fight well but if leadership is bad those men stick to bad orders.
Japan had good pilots and planes deadly to themselves and others, but a poor factory line hurt them.
The Italian Air Force did ok, but it should have conquered Malta.

I know the Allied Air Forces made a lot of mistakes, but at least they were quicker on their toes to fix the situation. When Ira Eaker had to go, he went. Doolittle took his place.
The terrible losses of the Allied Bombing campaign might be considered as a setback, but at least everybody tried to run the missions effectively and didn't mess around with a good plan like Goring did a bit in the BOB.

FLYBOYJ · Feb 24, 2007

ndicki said:
pbfoot, the question was "best", not "biggest" - there was no way that the individual quality of USAAF, USN and USMC air and ground crews were as good as their Empire equivalents! Just look at navigation; during the day, boxes of B-17s or B-24s were navigated by the lead aircraft only, with the other navigators in the formation following. RAF and Dominion aircraft, Lancs, Halibags or Stirlings by this time, were navigating individually to the target - admittedly with some pretty sophisticated aids which the Americans did not use by day - and achieving similar or better results.

The leadership orientation of 8th USAAF consisted essentially in ignoring everything the RAF had already learnt about flying over Germany in daylight, and getting huge numbers of men killed uselessly while they learnt the lessons again. That changed in 1944 with the advent of the P-51 in sufficient numbers, and with the decline in capacity of the Luftwaffe, but it was still a case of mindless obstinacy at the cost of thousands of lives. They had much the same approach to ground tactics, too, I seem to remember. Not the best air force. Sorry.

pbfoot said:
and the reply was for the best I don't really think that Harris matched up to Spaatz nor Arnold what did the RAF ignore daylight bombing big deal the reason the RAF/we didn't is because we couldn't stand the losses of equipment or men
. The RAF/we didn't crush the LW it was the USAAF with their daylight missions over Europe

Trust me I'm quite proud of our accomplishments and would like to believe as you think but being realistic I can't honestly back that theory

While ndicki brings up the negatives of the 8th AF bomber campaign, The bombing of Germany needed to be accomplished round the clock for the end result. Although it seemed like there was a huge loss of US men and equipment, that was situation we were placed in was the cost of war and the US was able to accept those losses. Based on the equipment of the day I think the 8th AF did a fine job, but as always stated the bombing campaign of Germany wouldn't of been a success without the continual bombing by both RAF AND USAAF.

ndicki - we had the same Nav equipment you guys did and navigating across vast portions of the South Pacific was no picnic as well.

mkloby · Feb 24, 2007

Just a few comments:
Ndicki: With regard to the lead plane leading the formation and every other soul following blindly - that makes no sense. If you are a single piloted aircraft flying wing off your lead - you absolutely are entirely consumed in flying your position you can't do much of your own navigation. However, with a crew such as the B-17, with a pilot, CP, bombardier, and a nav - you have a lot of heads to back up the plane that is flying lead. Also, in formation flight, you follow your lead. You don't break off and go on your own way.

Sys: don't forget the USMC pilots! We're naval aviators too, and go through navy flight training as well!

pbfoot · Feb 24, 2007

Now if I was to be Nationalistic I would say the RCAF which went from 4000 men and 12 Hurricanes as our frontline equipment to arguably the 4th most powerful air force in 6 years with 78 squadrons not including the BCATP which trained 167,000 aircrew I'll give the RCAF second . But one must agree the USAAC, USN, USMC could and did project air supremecy whereever they went it was the force . Now Finland certainly deserves accolades for its accomplishments including the production and development of fighters but not the best

Soundbreaker Welch? · Feb 25, 2007

Three Cheers for the Canadians!

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Feb 25, 2007

syscom3 said:
Not at all.

If you have to look at this in macro sense.

1) Did the country have a scientific base in which to develope totally new weapons?

2) Did the country have a technological base in which to convert scientific advances into a usable product?

3) Did the country have an industrial base in which to build a lot of products without going bankrupt?

4) Did the country have the capacity to change production in the middle of a "run" and incorporate the newest changes , all without shutting the line down?

5) Did the country have the capacity to train lots of pilots that had a good chance of surviving their first missions in combat?

6) Did the country have the capacity to maintain all the planes in the field?

The US excelled so much in the production of aircraft and pilot training, that it dwarfs the runner up(s).

I would also say that the USN carrier pilots were arguably the best in the world. And there were so many of them, they would have qualified as being a whole seperate AF in the ranking.

You are barking up the wrong tree here syscom.

I allready gave my vote to the US 40 posts ago...

comiso90 · Feb 25, 2007

Perhaps I'm insane but the notion of selecting the best AF of WW2 is freaking silly.

The Awards go to:

Most Consistent Quality… RAF
Most Adaptive … USAAF
Most Innovative … Luftwaffe
Best Naval Overall… USN
Most Defiant … Finnish (Honorable mention Malta and Wake Island)
Best Naval Air Power 1937 – 1943 Japanese
Best Naval Air Power 1943 – 1945 USN
Best daylight strategic bombers … USAAF
Best night strategic bombers … RAF
Best anti-armor … Soviets
Best overall 1943.5 – 1945 … USAAF
Best Problem Solvers … RAF
Most unfulfilled potential.. Italian Air Arm
Most effective Interdiction … RAF
Best Interceptors … Luftwaffe
Best High Altitude Long Range Escort ... USAAF
Most Improved … USAAF
Best Ground Support Pacific ... USMC
most cool markings ... Romainia
most women pilots ... ruskies

>>>>>>>>>> The options are endless!

Best Navel.... Veronica Lake

syscom3 · Feb 25, 2007

comiso90 said:
Perhaps I'm insane but the notion of selecting the best AF of WW2 is freaking silly.

The Awards go to:

Most Consistent Quality… RAF
Most Adaptive … USAAF
Most Innovative … Luftwaffe
Best Naval Overall… USN
Most Defiant … Finnish (Honorable mention Malta and Wake Island)
Best Naval Air Power 1937 – 1943 Japanese
Best Naval Air Power 1943 – 1945 USN
Best daylight strategic bombers … USAAF
Best night strategic bombers … RAF
Best anti-armor … Soviets
Best overall 1943.5 – 1945 … USAAF
Best Problem Solvers … RAF
Most unfulfilled potential.. Italian Air Arm
Most effective Interdiction … RAF
Best Interceptors … Luftwaffe
Best High Altitude Long Range Escort ... USAAF
Most Improved … USAAF
Best Ground Support Pacific ... USMC
most cool markings ... Romainia
most women pilots ... ruskies

>>>>>>>>>> The options are endless!

Best Navel.... Veronica Lake

Now condense it into which AF was the best.

Civettone · Feb 26, 2007

Ok, let's look at this at a critical and empirical point of view ...

condensing ...

condensing ...

"most women pilots ... ruskies"

A ha!!

!! Russian AF!!

Kris

bigZ · Feb 26, 2007

Pilots from the Russian 586th Women's Fighter Regiment. Kris your welcome to them.

fat flyer · Feb 26, 2007

The best airforce in WW2 in the US. The US brought the fight to the enemy and emerged at the end of the war as undisputed in air supremacy.

Civettone · Feb 27, 2007

Damn, BigZ!

Well, I found on the Marina Raskova and the Soviet Women Pilots of World War II website some more 'ugly' women but let's just stick to the beauties, agreed?

Miss Natlya Meklin flew 840 missions!

Kris

Vassili Zaitzev · Feb 28, 2007

hey, haven't been in here in a while, just post my opinion.
my vote goes to the USAAF, though I would've voted Finns if they were on there.

Cyrano · Feb 28, 2007

YakFlyer · Mar 3, 2007

interesting stuff, I'd go with USAAF if it weren't for the fact that they were so far behind innitially, but they did catch up quickly.

RAF is my pick.

Herr_Scheiker · Mar 4, 2007

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
I agree too, that is why I voted for the USAAF.

Air forces are part of armed forces, so can not be considered alone.

USAF against Luftwaffe Alone? With the Germans not having to divide their forces? Can not compare, for me the Germans where the best, they had to fight the russians, the RAF, USAF, Polish, French, Greeks, Dutch, Canadian, etc. and were able to do it during 5 years, and they did it with no resources, while suffering civil population bombardement, industrial destruction, fighting 5 fronts, etc., period.

Glider · Mar 4, 2007

Whilst there is no doubt that the German Air Force did well compared to what they were up against, its also true to say that they were on the defensive from 1942 onwards. Defensive single engined fighters are much easier to produce that bombers let alone 4 engined bombers and transport planes.

To decide on the best air force you need to consider all the requirements placed against that nation. Only the USA met the requirements in both quality and quantity to fulfill those needs.

The Germans lacked transport, Recce, maritime recce, naval aircraft and strategic bombers in particular.

bigZ · Mar 4, 2007

Scheiker you talk correctly of the air forces being integrated with all the other armed services but then screw it up by trying to divorce it from the strategic reality.

A serious shortcoming of the Luftwaffe is its leadership above mid level. USAF beats it handsdown.The Luftwaffe was primarily tacticial airforce due to geographical location and a lack of materials pre war which fortunately meant it could not wage a strategic campain anyway near the same level as the USAF. An example of incompetence at high level was the fall of France which released an abundance of raw materials/factories/manpower which the Luftwaffe did not capitalise on it.

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